Booty Ethics

This. If it is still hot off the press it's probably not booty. And just being nice to each other. On the other hand I dropped a screw on the way up the black dike when I was planning on hiking off and not rapping the route. The party coming up behind me gave me the screw back. I tried to help them understand that I had given up on it, had no intention of looking for it and it was theirs but they insisted that I take it.  It would have been lame of me to ask them for that screw because I had no intention of rapping the route and looking for the screw. .  The lake were everyone raps every route is totally different. I put the dropped screw on their packs if I see it happen. Or holler up Did you guys drop a screw?  If it's fresh and underneath them. In that situation it's wicked lame to keep the screw.  If I find a screw with no one around to ask then it is booty. 

Let's also talk about fixed lines!! Especially on popular routes. I have a rope that smells of mildew from the Voo I finally claimed after seeing it up for 2.5 weeks... My new route development line for the fall. And no I'm not looking for the owner if it was abandoned that long and is now not climb worthy.

I have had fixed ropes on projects for longer than 2.5 weeks. Granted at obscure crags not well traveled. Still thinking that stealing project ropes is a dick move. 

Michael Swrote:

Let's also talk about fixed lines!! Especially on popular routes. I have a rope that smells of mildew from the Voo I finally claimed after seeing it up for 2.5 weeks... My new route development line for the fall. And no I'm not looking for the owner if it was abandoned that long and is now not climb worthy.

Dang! Taking the voo ropes! Bold move cotton. I mean doesn’t necessarily sound not climb worthy… sounds like you’re still planning to use it? So perhaps not a purely altruistic community safety concern measure. But maybe you really wanted a new route developing rope? 

Todd Rwrote:

Dang! Taking the voo ropes! Bold move cotton. I mean doesn’t necessarily sound not climb worthy… sounds like you’re still planning to use it? So perhaps not a purely altruistic community safety concern measure. But maybe you really wanted a new route developing rope? 

Normally i wouldn't..

but it was on a route asked to please not leave fixed ropes on or "they would be dealt with accordingly" 

If the rope was still climb worthy.. or i saw someone on it the month I was there. It'd be another story. 

And if anyone says it's theirs you're more than welcome to it back. But it was literally sun faded opposite of wall side... it was there a while. Also too stiff to climb on so now a fixed line to donate somewhere 

Brian Whtwrote:

I was doing an ascent of the Regular Route on Fairview and was following a young German couple who were having an adventure. We shared belays and at least the follower was new to trad climbing. Every pitch I led I found at least 2 pieces left behind. None were hard to get out and I climbed and removed the pieces as I led. At each belay I handed over the gear I retrieved. The couple were so happy to be doing the climb and we were all laughing about the situation. A great memory and great day. 

haha dude I had a very similar experience around this time last year also on the Regular Route of Fairview. Experienced leader, inexperienced follower. I must have cleaned and returned 7 or 8 pieces over the course of the day. It got to the point where the follower got to know me by name and would yell down and ask if I could help her free yet another stuck piece.

It helped that she was very polite and cute, but even if she hadn't been - that's a situation where it's the right thing to do to lend people a hand and get their gear back to them.

Michael Swrote:

Normally i wouldn't..

but it was on a route asked to please not leave fixed ropes on or "they would be dealt with accordingly" 

If the rope was still climb worthy.. or i saw someone on it the month I was there. It'd be another story. 

And if anyone says it's theirs you're more than welcome to it back. But it was literally sun faded opposite of wall side... it was there a while. Also too stiff to climb on so now a fixed line to donate somewhere 

Meh. Don't listen to me. I'm just bored on a rest day and it's like 90 degrees out so I'm just talking unfounded shit on MP. I've got no skin in the game. 

Did you at least send New Mutant? I retract all trash talk if so. ;)

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Please let me know what 5.9 you are “projecting”.   I could use a few more draws lol.   

Probably easier for you to just come by my house and grab some draws, Kevin. You know I only project 5.8. 

Chris Ducawrote:

Topic drift…

For what it’s worth, any route that can easily be cleaned on the lower, shouldn’t really have fixed draws despite the grade, unless you’re projecting it, then clean it after you’re done.

It’s a courtesy, and it allows people to practice a little self-sufficiency. 

So no permas?

Calebwrote:

So no permas?

I didn't say that.  I said any route that can easily be cleaned shouldn't have fixed (perma) draws.  If it's too difficult to clean on the lower, then fixed (permas) are useful and make sense.  

Chris, I 99% agree with you. There are cases where all the rock in reach of a given stance is hollow or fractured, a fall from above that stance would be bad, and there's bullet rock 18" above reach. This is a rare case, but one where a perma makes sense to me.

TaylorPwrote:

I have a scenario that I'd like some people to weigh in on the "rules" of booty. Climbing a multipitch in Yosemite that is rappeled. The party ahead of us got a black totem stuck and couldnt get it out, they took the carabiner off and continued on. They were a couple pitches ahead, so we didnt know it was theirs. We assumed it was a fixed piece and worked it for 25 ish minutes before we got it out. While they were later rappelling past us, they asked for their totem back. My thoughts were that it was fully abandoned, otherwise they would have left the carabiner and yelled down to us. But im not a dick so we gave it back. They didnt even offer a beer for our hard work which was a bit of a bummer! Was this fully booty?

Not booty.  The leader (possibly more experienced climber) should be given the opportunity to recover the piece if they’re rappelling the route.  Once their off the route entirely it’s booty.

That's my thought. Leader didn't even know that his piece was down there. Not paying attention to what the party behind is doing. Follower is overwhelmed by exposure and not communicating that they left the totem.. not booty until that team raps and gets a chance to recover their cam. 

The strangest booty experience Ive ever had was out at Index Washington.

I had been working on a stuck piece of mank for about 10 minutes when I finally popped the cam out. In it's damaged state, the lobes of this alien cam literally fell off the stem to the earth below. I watched as an onlooker ran over to the cam lobes, exclaimed loudly that it was now their booty and refused to give the lobes back, effectively bootying the booty that I had just bootied.

It's more comical now that I think about it, but this individual seemed to think anything that is dropped off a climb becomes booty. A true pirate.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

That's my thought. Leader didn't even know that his piece was down there. Not paying attention to what the party behind is doing. Follower is overwhelmed by exposure and not communicating that they left the totem.. not booty until that team raps and gets a chance to recover their cam. 

Im not defending anything, just throwing more facts out there. It was 10 feet below a (bolted) belay on a harder climb in Yosemite. They had easy communciation and both stances were very nice ledges. They were swinging leads and looked casual on hard pitches, so both very experienced climbers. For sure they knew we were working it (and had the piece) because they asked for it when we were higher on the route and out of view of the pitch where it was stuck.

I guess next time I should yell up before I waste my time? My thought was that they would have said something if it was their cam, so I assumed it was from someone else.

TaylorPwrote:

I guess next time I should yell up before I waste my time?

That would seem more reasonable to me.

It was always my understanding that the point of booty was to keep the mountain clean, not to punish other climbers for getting things stuck. As said up thread, if it’s not abandoned it’s not booty. If I stash my skis at the bottom of the climb, they’re not free skis.

If you know someone is coming back through that way, they haven’t abandoned anything. Just ask all the dog walkers who leave shit bags along the sides of trails. If you think maybe they are abandoning something, you’d at least have to ask.

Michael Swrote:

Let's also talk about fixed lines!! Especially on popular routes. I have a rope that smells of mildew from the Voo I finally claimed after seeing it up for 2.5 weeks... My new route development line for the fall. And no I'm not looking for the owner if it was abandoned that long and is now not climb worthy.

is 2.5 weeks long enough to do permanent damage? I've left ropes up for longer than this on some of my TRS projects! Should I retire the rope?

Johnny Sullivanwrote:

is 2.5 weeks long enough to do permanent damage? I've left ropes up for longer than this on some of my TRS projects! Should I retire the rope?

Permanent damage - yes.  Significant damage - probably not.

Johnny Sullivanwrote:

is 2.5 weeks long enough to do permanent damage? I've left ropes up for longer than this on some of my TRS projects! Should I retire the rope?

I wouldn't want to ever use a rope i left up outside for weeks as a lead rope.. But for TRS it's generally acceptable with caution 

amariuswrote:

Probably bail carabiners. You know, once you get to the anchors and have no idea what to do, you would use two  bail carabiners to lower. /sarcasm

The only reason to remove anchor biners is if they are getting worn to knife edge.

No, those gray areas typically exist in obtuse minds

lol.

Clint knows exactly what he is talking about. The "obtuse" one is you.