Booty Ethics

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

 NOT Booty.   Any gear left behind from an accident is Not booty. Give it to SAR or drop at the local  climbing store or gym. 

project draws on really hard climbs and or really overhanging climbs are not booty. Sorry but if you have to leave project draws on a 5.9 they will walk away on you. Its not fair but it is the way it is.  The stronger climbers have their own set of rulze that don't apply to us chuffers. 

any gear that the party has Not abandoned and given up on retrieving is Not booty. If I get my can stuck and tell you that I am going back up there tomorrow morning to retrieve it but you feel the need to solo the rt by headlamp to get my cam  you are a dick. 

Developers gear is NOT Booty. fixed ropes, stashed ropes, stashed stick clips, and any gear left on a red tagged route that is in the process of being developed is not booty. even if its easy climbing stay away and leave that shit alone untill the developer is  finished cleaning/bolting etc and pulls their tags.

Really expensive shit like Ice tools lost in the snow are not booty untill the owner has completly given up attempting to recover them. that usually means the end of the season. If you go up in april and brave the falling ice to do spring clean up then whatever you find is booty. If you happen to know that your buddy's Nomic is up there at the base of Ragnarök and you find it you are a dick if you don't return it. some rando tool that you find while doing spring clean up is yours. If someone drops a screw at the lake If I see them do it I put the screw on their pack at the base of the cliff.  If its lost in the snow and I find on spring clean up its booty. 

Shoes, ropes, camera's clothes etc left at the base of the cliff or in the parking lot are not booty. that shit is lost and found. Not booty.  

I 

Booty Is.. 

Booty is gear you lose on a climb or to the mountain through your own weakness or incompetence and (key) you give up on trying to retrieve it.   If I get totally spanked and leave half my rack up there and declare fck this shit. that's too scary for me!    my shit is now booty. If I announce that I will try and recover it tomorrow then its not booty untill its obvious that I am full of shit and not going back up there to try and get my gear.  If I get rained off and leave gear , same thing. Poor judgement. I get a day to try and recover my shit or it becomes booty. My choice.  I you smoke so much weed you can't remember your own name and you forget to clean that cam .. oh well... that's booty.  you get it stuck and  give up trying to recover it thats booty. 

Asking on social media for the return of  lost items, gear left from rescues etc is perfectly acceptable. Begging on social media for the return of items  that fall into the booty category which is bail gear, dropped gear that you gave up on trying to recover and stuck gear is exceptionally lame and shows a lack of strong character. 

Do you and Ayn Rand use the same editor?  😂 

Ayn Rand would be a cool name for a shoe resoler.

Redacted Redactbergwrote:

Ayn Rand would be a cool name for a shoe resoler.

lol. Probably wouldn’t get much business from altruists, collectivists, statists, deists, etc. 😂 

I have a scenario that I'd like some people to weigh in on the "rules" of booty. Climbing a multipitch in Yosemite that is rappeled. The party ahead of us got a black totem stuck and couldnt get it out, they took the carabiner off and continued on. They were a couple pitches ahead, so we didnt know it was theirs. We assumed it was a fixed piece and worked it for 25 ish minutes before we got it out. While they were later rappelling past us, they asked for their totem back. My thoughts were that it was fully abandoned, otherwise they would have left the carabiner and yelled down to us. But im not a dick so we gave it back. They didnt even offer a beer for our hard work which was a bit of a bummer! Was this fully booty?

apogeewrote:

There must be way to reduce the number of threads that rehash the same ‘issue’ over and over and over and over ad nauseum…

This forum would die if we did that. It's the same problem with any fandom of a completed story. But new people haven't seen the rehash of the rehash of the rehash so it is fresh for them. 

TaylorPwrote:

I have a scenario that I'd like some people to weigh in on the "rules" of booty. Climbing a multipitch in Yosemite that is rappeled. The party ahead of us got a black totem stuck and couldnt get it out, they took the carabiner off and continued on. They were a couple pitches ahead, so we didnt know it was theirs. We assumed it was a fixed piece and worked it for 25 ish minutes before we got it out. While they were later rappelling past us, they asked for their totem back. My thoughts were that it was fully abandoned, otherwise they would have left the carabiner and yelled down to us. But im not a dick so we gave it back. They didnt even offer a beer for our hard work which was a bit of a bummer! Was this fully booty?

Thats pretty poor form on their part.  I once left several cams on Mithral Dihedral after bailing due to a thunderstorm.  I went into the gear shop in Lone Pine and told the guy behind the counter that there were several cams up there and if he wanted them they were his to keep.  Stuck and bail gear should be considered fair game. 

if they were planning on rapping the route and getting the cam on their way down how is it abandoned? 

Daniel Shivelywrote:

lol. Probably wouldn’t get much business from altruists, collectivists, statists, deists, etc. 😂 

Who is John Galt Resolers and why can't I seem to get a hold of them?

When they finally responded they suggested I should resole my own damn shoes!

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

if they were planning on rapping the route and getting the cam on their way down how is it abandoned? 

Well I didnt know that at the time. Taking the carabiner off seemed to indicate that someone had tried and gave up. They definitely heard us working on the piece and were able to see us, but said nothing (they were maybe 80 feet away). So they let us do the work when they could have done it themselves before continuing on. The piece was at ledge, so there was no risk of blowing the send because of having to hang to work it.

Taylor P, I think you did the right thing by giving it back. As you said, you're "not a dick".  You gave it back to be nice, not out of obligation. However, they are dicks by not recognizing that and expressing appropriate gratitude in the form of alcoholic beverages. They definitely should repay you for your kindness. 

The real question is can you climb a nearby easier route and swing over to claim booty on a harder line, or should you have to climb the route with the stuck/abandoned gear on it. IMO, climbing the easier line is poor style but fair game.

Michael Smalleywrote:

The real question is can you climb a nearby easier route and swing over to claim booty on a harder line, or should you have to climb the route with the stuck/abandoned gear on it. IMO, climbing the easier line is poor style but fair game.

Regarding true booty as discussed earlier, anything is fair game.

Michael Smalleywrote:

The real question is can you climb a nearby easier route and swing over to claim booty on a harder line, or should you have to climb the route with the stuck/abandoned gear on it. IMO, climbing the easier line is poor style but fair game.

What Marc said. Booty is in rock. One may remove booty from rock. From your line of thinking we may as well judge the way the booty was removed, giving additional props to those who use just their fingers and spit and less to those who use water bottles and specific booty removal tools. 

I am incapable of understanding giving a fuck. 

If I could only use my fingers and spit, I wouldn't very many pitons.

Topic drift…

For what it’s worth, any route that can easily be cleaned on the lower, shouldn’t really have fixed draws despite the grade, unless you’re projecting it, then clean it after you’re done.

It’s a courtesy, and it allows people to practice a little self-sufficiency. 

Personally, I’ve always adhered to ground up access to booty. Top down just feels like cheating, somehow.

To TaylorP: I wonder if you got scammed. This is not a criticism. I can imagine doing exactly as you did, even if I suspected the other party was dishonest.

The only time I recall going out of my way to retrieve booty was when a friend and to bail in haste due to a yellow jacket swarm. We  went up in the cool of the next morning and retrieved his gear. Bruce was in no shape to do it himself. He had something like 100 stings. A lot anyway. 

Peter Croft retrieved a nut of mine once upon a time, and returned it. It was the day I met him. 

I was following a guide and client on Cathedral Peak years ago. The client was having an epic on the chimney pitch and left several cams behind, which I retrieved once the client have been hauled out of the chimney. The moment I stuck my head out of the chimney the guide said "give me my gear." I was already planning to and did so. I did wonder though if these cams would count as booty? Guide didn't say thanks, though I think he was pretty stressed with his client struggling. 

Another time on Donner summit I found two cams left as an anchor. I grabbed them and on the hike out saw two climbers running towards me. Asked them them if they forget anything. They described the cams and I handed them over. They said thanks but no beverage treat. 

Dave, interesting stories. For mine above, I was guiding Reed Pinnacle Direct. Peter was was just starting to become well known at that time, and I had heard. Also, we knew people in common. So my guest was having a little difficulty cleaning a nut about 2/3rds up the 2nd pitch when he tells me someone is coming up right behind him, with no rope. Then he moves up a bit and tells me that fellow is getting the nut for us. He starts climbing again and finishes the pitch, shortly followed by Peter, who hands me the nut and cleaning tool. I had no idea what Peter Croft looked like, but as we exchanged pleasantries, the BC Canadian accent was obvious. I said you must be Peter Croft, to which he replied, very surprised, yeah, how did you know? 

I was doing an ascent of the Regular Route on Fairview and was following a young German couple who were having an adventure. We shared belays and at least the follower was new to trad climbing. Every pitch I led I found at least 2 pieces left behind. None were hard to get out and I climbed and removed the pieces as I led. At each belay I handed over the gear I retrieved. The couple were so happy to be doing the climb and we were all laughing about the situation. A great memory and great day.