Booty Ethics

Several recent incidents in the Front Range have brought to light that what is and isn't booty is not self-apparent to all climbers. Can we crowd-source a simple guide? Here's what I think:

Sport climbing:

Project draws (i.e. multiple full draws on the whole route or a significant portion of the route) = not booty

Biners on an anchor = not booty

Bail biner/draw (i.e. a biner/draw left on a single non-anchor bolt) = booty

Trad climbing:

Fixed gear with historical precedent = not booty

Any other gear left on the route = booty

Also, I would add that if you make a post asking for your gear back, you should offer a symbolic reward if said gear could be considered booty. And, if someone leaves gear on a route due to an accident, the ethical action is to return their gear to them if possible.

The central question is "was the gear abandoned?"

Did the people who left it plan to come back and get it or use it?

Or in he case of biners at an already fixed anchor, did they intend for other people to use them.

There are many potential gray areas.

Clint Cumminswrote:

The central question is "was the gear abandoned?"

Did the people who left it plan to come back and get it or use it?

Or in he case of biners at an already fixed anchor, did they intend for other people to use them.

There are many potential gray areas.

Another one: gear left after an accident.

I've always understood quickdraws on a not-yet-redpointed route to be non-booty. I'm not so clear on "project draws" on established routes that see regular ascents. To me, these look like litter left by a lazy person and while I've resisted the urge to booty them, I wouldn't fault another climber for doing so. To clarify, I'm not including perma-draws here.

Is this a Front Range phenomenon that's migrating elsewhere?

Grape Alien, your list seems reasonable with Marc’s addition of gear left after an accident.

With respect to “project draws”, I personally think it’s worth taking them off at the end of the day. Might as well bolt-to-bolt the proj to warm up before the redpoint. But I certainly have never considered stealing someone else’s draws when they are left up, though I have sent some projects on other people’s draws.

There must be way to reduce the number of threads that rehash the same ‘issue’ over and over and over and over ad nauseum…

apogeewrote:

There must be way to reduce the number of threads that rehash the same ‘issue’ over and over and over and over ad nauseum…

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/117694891/does-nobody-understand-booty-anymore

apogeewrote:

There must be way to reduce the number of threads that rehash the same ‘issue’ over and over and over and over ad nauseum…

Probably a feature that searches your post title and content against the MP database of posts as you are trying to create a new one, deliberately asking you “is this unique compared to these?”

So if there is booty at the crag, are we supposed to not look at it?

So if I leave quickdraws up on that 5.9 I'm "projecting" everyone else who climbs better than me should just leave them there? 

If you run into left behind equipment that doesn't impede your climbing or endanger you, leave it alone.

If you leave stuff and it isn't there when you return, don't be surprised. If that's a problem, don't leave it in the first place.

Simple huh ?

I've lost plenty of stuff over the years. When developing a crag I leave stuff. Sometimes it's gone when I return. Oh well. No good deed goes unpunished.

OTOH.... I once found 2 rigid-stem Friends 1000 feet up on a remote peak in the Winds. I was pretty sure no one was coming back for them. I took em.

Clint Cumminswrote:

Or in he case of biners at an already fixed anchor, did they intend for other people to use them.

Probably bail carabiners. You know, once you get to the anchors and have no idea what to do, you would use two  bail carabiners to lower. /sarcasm

The only reason to remove anchor biners is if they are getting worn to knife edge.

There are many potential gray areas.

No, those gray areas typically exist in obtuse minds

In severe overhangs sometimes draws or gear are left to facilitate cleaning on lower.

Eric Mosswrote:

So if there is booty at the crag, are we supposed to not look at it?

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/108335653/booty-rules

Logan Petersonwrote:

I've always understood quickdraws on a not-yet-redpointed route to be non-booty. I'm not so clear on "project draws" on established routes that see regular ascents. To me, these look like litter left by a lazy person and while I've resisted the urge to booty them, I wouldn't fault another climber for doing so. To clarify, I'm not including perma-draws here.

Is this a Front Range phenomenon that's migrating elsewhere?

Pretty standard at most established sport areas I’ve climbed. I’d be pretty bummed if someone took my draws off a route. 

Andrew Ricewrote:

So if I leave quickdraws up on that 5.9 I'm "projecting" everyone else who climbs better than me should just leave them there? 

Please let me know what 5.9 you are “projecting”.   I could use a few more draws lol.   

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Please let me know what 5.9 you are “projecting”.   I could use a few more draws lol.   

Not very inclusive. Are you some kind of a gatekeeping, exclusionary elitist? lol 😆 

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Not very inclusive. Are you some kind of a gatekeeping, exclusionary elitist? lol 😆 

Nailed it

 NOT Booty.   Any gear left behind from an accident is Not booty. Give it to SAR or drop at the local  climbing store or gym. 

project draws on really hard climbs and or really overhanging climbs are not booty. Sorry but if you have to leave project draws on a 5.9 they will walk away on you. Its not fair but it is the way it is.  The stronger climbers have their own set of rulze that don't apply to us chuffers. 

any gear that the party has Not abandoned and given up on retrieving is Not booty. If I get my can stuck and tell you that I am going back up there tomorrow morning to retrieve it but you feel the need to solo the rt by headlamp to get my cam  you are a dick. 

Developers gear is NOT Booty. fixed ropes, stashed ropes, stashed stick clips, and any gear left on a red tagged route that is in the process of being developed is not booty. even if its easy climbing stay away and leave that shit alone untill the developer is  finished cleaning/bolting etc and pulls their tags.

Really expensive shit like Ice tools lost in the snow are not booty untill the owner has completly given up attempting to recover them. that usually means the end of the season. If you go up in april and brave the falling ice to do spring clean up then whatever you find is booty. If you happen to know that your buddy's Nomic is up there at the base of Ragnarök and you find it you are a dick if you don't return it. some rando tool that you find while doing spring clean up is yours. If someone drops a screw at the lake If I see them do it I put the screw on their pack at the base of the cliff.  If its lost in the snow and I find on spring clean up its booty. 

Shoes, ropes, camera's clothes etc left at the base of the cliff or in the parking lot are not booty. that shit is lost and found. Not booty.  

I 

Booty Is.. 

Booty is gear you lose on a climb or to the mountain through your own weakness or incompetence and (key) you give up on trying to retrieve it.   If I get totally spanked and leave half my rack up there and declare fck this shit. that's too scary for me!    my shit is now booty. If I announce that I will try and recover it tomorrow then its not booty untill its obvious that I am full of shit and not going back up there to try and get my gear.  If I get rained off and leave gear , same thing. Poor judgement. I get a day to try and recover my shit or it becomes booty. My choice.  I you smoke so much weed you can't remember your own name and you forget to clean that cam .. oh well... that's booty.  you get it stuck and  give up trying to recover it thats booty. 

Asking on social media for the return of  lost items, gear left from rescues etc is perfectly acceptable. Begging on social media for the return of items  that fall into the booty category which is bail gear, dropped gear that you gave up on trying to recover and stuck gear is exceptionally lame and shows a lack of strong character.