Indian Creek dirtbagging is dead

grug gwrote:

Wow who let this rabid dog loose? I don't think land manager or indigenous representatives think about plaques at all. They would have to hike an hour up a hill to see them. 

Please don't tout the access fund like they are any authority on the matter. 

The Access Fund is most certainly an expert on how climbers are sometimes their own worst enemies when they break the law for their own convenience.

It endangers access for all climbers and insults our allies.

Please STOP advocating for illegal practices on Public Lands. It does not help our community.

grug gwrote:

What's your concern with his Instagram posts? He obviously isn't in it for money. 

I guess I feel that folks putting videos out daily, especially of places that have too much traffic already, are self serving, probably a bit narcissistic and definitely hoping for some financial gain. Maybe I'm just a judgemental a-hole.

On another note,  I learned crack technique at IC in the 90s and always appreciated the plaques,  I had heard folks were stealing them.  Certainly no worse than cutting in parking lots, trails, putting in crappers and installing bolts every 20'. 

Camping in one spot for too long while maintaining a giant social media presence is dumb as dumb can be.

The world is burning and society is crumbling...I say let the man enjoy himself out in the desert while he still can

People on Mountain Project have some interesting takes. While it seems like there might be missing context here, the idea that "rules are rules" is a bit silly.

If someone goes out of their way to make positive contributions to the world, they absolutely deserve favorable treatment—when it's reasonable to give it.

For example, if Mr. Rogers got a parking ticket because he spent extra time with a sick child, most people would agree the ticket should be waived. But if he parked in a fire lane, then sure—he should probably pay the fine.

I don't have all the details here, but if someone spends thousands of hours and thousands of dollars improving a crag, is it really that unreasonable to give them special parking privileges? The intent behind the rule seems more about keeping out long-term squatters than punishing van-lifers. If being a volunteer gets you around this rule, why can't we just recognize him as a volunteer? Does every volunteer need to work with an official charity? Can't we recognize people for doing good things, regardless of how official their capacity is? 

My two cents… 

I agree completely. Life isn’t black and white and people aren’t either.

Devin has contributed significantly to Indian Creek with his prolific route development and all of us who have visited have climbed at least one of his 650+ routes.

Devin is not like you and me. Let’s agree on that at the very minimum.

Most, if not all of us reading this thread (including myself), are consumers at Indian Creek, pure and simple. We go there solely to get our crack fix and we don't steward the area in any way, shape or form. We come for long weekends, get our ropes dirty, poop in a buckle and struggle up cracks that Devin floats up with ease because he’s climbed there for 30+ years since he was a teenager. And then he smokes a cigarette at the top and upgrades the anchor!

Devin picks up our trash when we leave and doesn't judge, he mends trails we don’t stop to take care of because he sees the erosion we cause, his money and time goes into anchors that we clip to safely get back to the ground, he’s actively paying for hardware and replacing anchors that have aged out because old hardware doesn’t replace itself. And when he meets us in the parking lot or at the base of a route, he’s happy we’re there and excited to share such a beautiful magical place with us.

To love and connect to a place as Devin does with Indian Creek is to take care of it in ways that most climbers will never understand.

I’m sorry this happened Devin and I do not support this action in any way. To me, the BLM is acting in a shortsighted manner and it’s a disservice to climbing at Indian Creek and to all climbers who visit the area. The BLM should have offered Devin a truck and job and brought his knowledge about climbing in the area into their organization. To me... a constructive path forward for the BLM would be to establish a stewardship role where Devin is valued as a partner and advisor, not treated as a problem that has to be litigated.

When you clip old anchor bolts there this fall, ask yourself who will replace them. To my knowledge, there are no formal bolt replacement or climbing hardware efforts ongoing at Indian Creek. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Is Devin not in here? His instagram always makes it into my feed somehow and I could swear he was an active MP user.

+1 to the sentiment that it's a shame to see him banned (for all the reasons stated here in this thread). RIP

Sprayloard Overstokerwrote:

Graffiti of any kind is outlawed in the USA and has no place in the outdoors, especially. European lax environmental ethics have no place here.

What part of that is unclear to you?

Climbing by its nature is law defying.  Outlaws are the climbing heros. Leave a plaque who fucking cares. Only climbers will see it. 

Anna Brownwrote:

My two cents… 

I agree completely. Life isn’t black and white and people aren’t either.

Devin has contributed significantly to Indian Creek with his prolific route development and all of us who have visited have climbed at least one of his 650+ routes.

Devin is not like you and me. Let’s agree on that at the very minimum.

Most, if not all of us reading this thread (including myself), are consumers at Indian Creek, pure and simple. We go there solely to get our crack fix and we don't steward the area in any way, shape or form. We come for long weekends, get our ropes dirty, poop in a buckle and struggle up cracks that Devin floats up with ease because he’s climbed there for 30+ years since he was a teenager. And then he smokes a cigarette at the top and upgrades the anchor!

Devin picks up our trash when we leave and doesn't judge, he mends trails we don’t stop to take care of because he sees the erosion we cause, his money and time goes into anchors that we clip to safely get back to the ground, he’s actively paying for hardware and replacing anchors that have aged out because old hardware doesn’t replace itself. And when he meets us in the parking lot or at the base of a route, he’s happy we’re there and excited to share such a beautiful magical place with us.

To love and connect to a place as Devin does with Indian Creek is to take care of it in ways that most climbers will never understand.

I’m sorry this happened Devin and I do not support this action in any way. To me, the BLM is acting in a shortsighted manner and it’s a disservice to climbing at Indian Creek and to all climbers who visit the area. The BLM should have offered Devin a truck and job and brought his knowledge about climbing in the area into their organization. To me... a constructive path forward for the BLM would be to establish a stewardship role where Devin is valued as a partner and advisor, not treated as a problem that has to be litigated.

When you clip old anchor bolts there this fall, ask yourself who will replace them. To my knowledge, there are no formal bolt replacement or climbing hardware efforts ongoing at Indian Creek. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

IC was well developed before he showed up but honestly the guy must be an absolute superman to do everything you mention and make Instagram videos daily, in the desert off grid no less. Nobody deserves special treatment though, especially in a fragile desert environment like IC. Maybe if he spent less time with a camera/internet and more time working with authorities and organizations this would have not have happened, just a guess. 

Regarding the route plaques at IC:

https://climbingzine.com/the-art-of-the-plaque-by-luke-mehall/

https://www.climbing.com/culture-climbing/carved-for-attention-why-the-tradition-of-carving-desert-plaques-is-outdated/

Only on MP can people show their "righteous" outrage at those who scratch a few letters into one of the hundreds of chunks that fall off each wall. 

Gosh, silly me, I thought leaving charmin bunnies was a bigger issue but clearly I'm focusing my vitriol on the wrong things...

Christian Heschwrote:

Only on MP can people show their "righteous" outrage at those who scratch a few letters into one of the hundreds of chunks that fall off each wall. 

Gosh, silly me, I thought leaving charmin bunnies was a bigger issue but clearly I'm focusing my vitriol on the wrong things...

No, my friend, trite graffiti like this that will potentially last a thousand of years is a bigger problem than biodegradable waste:

In a thousand years those will be petroglyphs, and the reason why people won't be able to climb at the Creek anymore   

I'll readily agree that finding the correct route is part of the adventure, but considering that these plaques are far outnumbered by the charmin bunnies, and seemingly always will be, I'll stick with the argument that the bunnies detract more from the user experience than the plaque... I've yet to accidentally step on a plaque and say "aw, SHIT!"

Duncan Dominguewrote:

In a thousand years those will be petroglyphs, and the reason why people won't be able to climb at the Creek anymore   

Sure, and your petrified shit will be sold in the tourist give shop too.

Losing access for abusing our privilege to put up new routes is more likely in the short term.

Anna Brownwrote:

My two cents… 

I agree completely. Life isn’t black and white and people aren’t either.

Devin has contributed significantly to Indian Creek with his prolific route development and all of us who have visited have climbed at least one of his 650+ routes.

Devin is not like you and me. Let’s agree on that at the very minimum.

Most, if not all of us reading this thread (including myself), are consumers at Indian Creek, pure and simple. We go there solely to get our crack fix and we don't steward the area in any way, shape or form. We come for long weekends, get our ropes dirty, poop in a buckle and struggle up cracks that Devin floats up with ease because he’s climbed there for 30+ years since he was a teenager. And then he smokes a cigarette at the top and upgrades the anchor!

Devin picks up our trash when we leave and doesn't judge, he mends trails we don’t stop to take care of because he sees the erosion we cause, his money and time goes into anchors that we clip to safely get back to the ground, he’s actively paying for hardware and replacing anchors that have aged out because old hardware doesn’t replace itself. And when he meets us in the parking lot or at the base of a route, he’s happy we’re there and excited to share such a beautiful magical place with us.

To love and connect to a place as Devin does with Indian Creek is to take care of it in ways that most climbers will never understand.

I’m sorry this happened Devin and I do not support this action in any way. To me, the BLM is acting in a shortsighted manner and it’s a disservice to climbing at Indian Creek and to all climbers who visit the area. The BLM should have offered Devin a truck and job and brought his knowledge about climbing in the area into their organization. To me... a constructive path forward for the BLM would be to establish a stewardship role where Devin is valued as a partner and advisor, not treated as a problem that has to be litigated.

When you clip old anchor bolts there this fall, ask yourself who will replace them. To my knowledge, there are no formal bolt replacement or climbing hardware efforts ongoing at Indian Creek. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Under the current rules, no amount of anchor replacement earns you a limitless camp site.  Maybe the rules should be different, but they aren’t.  

We don’t know much about what happened between DF and the land managers, so we really can’t say who caused the deterioration of that relationship.

The general inference is that DF lived in Indian Creek for long periods (though even that isn’t gold truth), which is definitely against the current laws.  Maybe the managers could have done better, but he certainly could have too.  

I see plenty of things about public land management that I don’t like, but enforcing camping limits isn’t one of them.  It’s a shame it went this way.  Hopefully good will come of it.

M Mwrote:

You gonna stand on this. To be clear in your viewpoint no one deserves special treatment in the desert?

Sprayloard Overstokerwrote:

No, my friend, trite graffiti like this that will potentially last a thousand of years is a bigger problem than biodegradable waste:

Loling

Sprayloard Overstokerwrote:

No, my friend, trite graffiti like this that will potentially last a thousand of years is a bigger problem than biodegradable waste:

What does this one have to do with DF? Did he carve these letters?

I hear that the Supercrack in IC has widened simply from people climbing it. Should climbing be banned altogether?

As for plaques? It is a non problem. They can be carried away. They can be broken into little pieces. They can be chipped clean. if they are some big deal it can be solved easy enough, just turn them over. I am not bothered by it. Eventually it will be "cool," to steal them and people will. So what. Climbers are the only ones who honestly care about rock cliffs. For most people they are just a backdrop. Something to look at from a distance. Wild life is few and far between. Some bats and bees and a rattlesnake or two. Most animals just walk by. Vertical deserts. Only rats and ants and a few spiders. So much drama over so little. Enjoy your short life. The people of the future will find a way to enjoy theirs. The people of the past don't matter. They are gone. It is only those here now that have a say. Let them have it. The real problems are major industrial pollution and over fishing and strip farming and nuclear weapons and masses of conventional small arms in the hands of religious extremists. Things like that. Put your noses to those grind stones. Let people enjoy a temporary escape from it where they can. Cliffs are perfect for this. Have fun. The rocks don't care. They don't feel a thing.

Belay Onwrote:

What does this one have to do with DF? Did he carve these letters?

I hear that the Supercrack in IC has widened simply from people climbing it. Should climbing be banned altogether?

Pretty sure there is a difference between written text carved into the rock (illegal and offensive) and climbing (entirely legal other than some restrictions on bolting and tools).

chris hubbardwrote:

As for plaques? It is a non problem. They can be carried away. They can be broken into little pieces. They can be chipped clean. if they are some big deal it can be solved easy enough, just turn them over. I am not bothered by it. Eventually it will be "cool," to steal them and people will. So what. Climbers are the only ones who honestly care about rock cliffs. For most people they are just a backdrop. Something to look at from a distance. Wild life is few and far between. Some bats and bees and a rattlesnake or two. Most animals just walk by. Vertical deserts. Only rats and ants and a few spiders. So much drama over so little. Enjoy your short life. The people of the future will find a way to enjoy theirs. The people of the past don't matter. They are gone. It is only those here now that have a say. Let them have it. The real problems are major industrial pollution and over fishing and strip farming and nuclear weapons and masses of conventional small arms in the hands of religious extremists. Things like that. Put your noses to those grind stones. Let people enjoy a temporary escape from it where they can. Cliffs are perfect for this. Have fun. The rocks don't care. They don't feel a thing.

The problem is that not everyone (ie Land Managers and our Indigenous allies) feels the same way about our graffiti. It's illegal for a reason and it endangers our access.