New and experienced climbers over 50 #36

The discussion about if Li is a bot is silly.

It’s easily resolved.

Li, if you could do us all a quick favour mate…

Hey Lori, what's the latest on your knees? Gonna go with some injections, or just do a carefully crafted dyno and slam 'em both into a wall?

That thought actually crossed my mind, once. A possibility of a pretty stout pendulum swing, if I came off a traverse at Smith rock. I cried a bit, staring across the void. Then....

Okay. 

If I do peel off? 

Just aim those knees straight into that rock you'll slam into! Free knees!

That got me calmed down. 

3rd pitch was fun!!

Helen

Carl Schneiderwrote:

The discussion about if Li is a bot is silly.

It’s easily resolved.
Li, if you could do us all a quick favour mate…

Don't think he is a bot at all.  For some reason I had seen one of his YouTube videos before .  Here is one of them.  His channel has climbing and tech content.

AI generated, Ship. Wait until you see what he can do with his new laptop! /S   

By the way, should we address you as Li, Li Hu, or Marc? (directed to LI Hu)

M Spraguewrote:

AI generated, Ship. Wait until you see what he can do with his new laptop! /S   

By the way, should we address you as Li, Li Hu, or Marc?

Whatever man. Just not trying to let you all dogpile on the guy.

Old lady Hwrote:

So, voting can often come down to something as simple as who is listed on a ballot first, lol! But, let's assume a bit more thought. What if what matters to you, particularly, is more of a single issue? Pro/anti abortion, pro/anti immigration, any kind of thing involving your own stuff. Then, yeah, it just might be someone you may even find repugnant as a human.....but they get the thing done that matters to you.

People bring up Hitler having support, at first. OMG! How could they have voted for Hitler!!! But, he wasn't a horrible Hitler monster until some hindsight was available. And... Germany was beat to shit during and post WW1, it's economy was in total shambles, and it's currency was worthless.

The first written record we have from Hitler about Jews dates from a letter he wrote in 1919.
 “ultimate goal must definitely be the removal of the Jews altogether.”

In 1924 Hitler attempted to overthrow the Weimar Republic and seize power by force. He failed and spent some time in prison but was not blocked from further political office. Does that sound familiar? During this time he also wrote Mein Kampf which made his racism and genocidal intent explicit.

By the time the Nazis took power in 1933 and Hitler became chancellor it was perfectly clear what he was. And to be fair it wasn't a majority of Germans who voted for him. The structure of their government was such that the Nazis were able to take control with only 32% of the vote because the opposition was fragmented. Once in power they used the machinery of government to crush all resistance and then ended free elections.

So yesh, maybe, just maybe, the dude who promises you won't need a wheelbarrow of cash just to buy a loaf of bread to keep ypur kids from starving, might, just might, get your vote. Not knowing, or maybe even with knowing, that he would be thatHitler we all know and love (to cite).

Indeed. But just consider those who were his targets might not be so understanding.

Ship Twrote:

Whatever man. Just not trying to let you all dogpile on the guy.

That was a joke. I thought I indicated it by /S   .I  guess -jk would be clearer.

I don't think we were really dogpiling, nor anyone has any lasting feelings of ill will towards him, just some of his views expressed seemed a bit tone deaf to the danger and immense human suffering and backwardness caused by these dictators and their acolytes. Naturally he got some questioning and pushback, and a few pretty mild snarky comments.

philip bone wrote:

What would Werner say?

Ho man!

Eric Engbergwrote:

Well some in Trump's inner circle think it's A1 - like steak sauce.  

For those who claim there is no intelligence, I would ask you what your definition if intelligence is?  I would say there is nothing artificial about it.

It is a really large program that has access to a really well indexed database of what others have written.  It is well enough written that it can parse a question apart and lookup the approved answers to each part of the question and put the answer together in a reasonable sentence structure.  That is the extent of what an AI does.  It is an LLM, not an AI.  Should we ever actually invent an AI then you should be scared.  What should scare you about LLMs is that idiots think it is something more than it is and act accordingly.

Emil Briggswrote:

The first written record we have from Hitler about Jews dates from a letter he wrote in 1919.
 “ultimate goal must definitely be the removal of the Jews altogether.”

In 1924 Hitler attempted to overthrow the Weimar Republic and seize power by force. He failed and spent some time in prison but was not blocked from further political office. Does that sound familiar? During this time he also wrote Mein Kampf which made his racism and genocidal intent explicit.

By the time the Nazis took power in 1933 and Hitler became chancellor it was perfectly clear what he was. And to be fair it wasn't a majority of Germans who voted for him. The structure of their government was such that the Nazis were able to take control with only 32% of the vote because the opposition was fragmented. Once in power they used the machinery of government to crush all resistance and then ended free elections.

Indeed. But just consider those who were his targets might not be so understanding.

The Enabling Act, 1933. Anyone hearing an echo of that lately? 

Ship Twrote:

Whatever man. Just not trying to let you all dogpile on the guy.

I’ve never had any issues with Li, I find him a nice fellow. I just was perplexed and not in agreeance with his stance on US politics at the moment. But we can agree to disagree about that 

Lots of my best friends are Trump supporters.  I am not.  However, we are still friends and can hang together without issues.  We even talk politics once a year or so.  But mostly we just talk about all the things we have in common and not those that we don't.  Hence, we are still friends.  It isn't hard.  You just have to care.

philip bone wrote:

What would Werner say?

Old lady Hwrote:

Hey Lori, what's the latest on your knees? Gonna go with some injections, or just do a carefully crafted dyno and slam 'em both into a wall?

Thanks for asking Helen.  I think I’m getting this all figured out.  I’m doing some PT, I’m taking a supplement called UCII for joints and trying to not overdo.  I have had zero knee pain since I started the supplement.

It gives me comfort to know that PRP and stem cell injections work so well, so if I’m really not fully healed I can head over to the doctor and get some injections.  

Meanwhile I got to try a sport route this afternoon—so I could see how the other half lives.     Rated 10c/d… it’s totally different rock than I’m used to , an overhanging route, all of it new to me. And scary, at first. A fall on this route means a swing and then hard work to pull back to where you left off.

I got farther than I expected… all the way to the crux move which I couldn’t quite figure out. It’s not just about strength but also some understanding of movement on a route like this.  I think if I stayed with it long enough I’d get it.

Watching Bob climb this route I  could see how decades of climbing on all kinds of rock has given him such a range of abilities.  So this season I’ve gotten a taste of stemming—it was just starting to feel intuitive, and some sport climbing and a few crack routes.  But I can’t wait to get back to slab. 

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^^^ Wow! Apogee that was a real gem you dug up. He could lay it on thick. 

Lori I want to climb that Dakota route. I walked out to it but my trad friends were not interested. 

Lori Milaswrote:

Is anyone interested in diet and nutrition as it applies to aging and athletic performance?  There are other places this could be discussed I guess. I appreciate the ability to share on this topic here but not if it’s an eye roller.

Younger athletes are all in on this (sports nutrition). 5.13 climbers are all in.  People in my age group not so much.

I had dinner last night with my little group of friends in their 80s and Tony who’s 75 and I continue to feel bewildered. Tony will be going for his hip replacement next Thursday (surgery number six in six years). Bev is frail and acquiring chronic diseases rapidly as well as dementia and yet no one seems to grasp that what is on their plate directly impacts their health. Bev assured me that she eats very well. She has three different dry cereals she likes to have for breakfast.  

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While type one diabetes has truly had some influence on me what has REALLY changed is feeling a profound decline in my body composition, energy, strength, and recovery to the point where I finally had to make it a personal mission to figure it all out. Three years ago, I hired a registered dietitian – – a young, highly trained guy, and we have been working together on and off all this time. But he has very little concept of changing needs in an aging population, especially one that wants to rock climb.   

Remember Amity Warne… the little gal who climbed Book of Hate?  She’s also a registered dietitian and I’ll be having a session with her soon. Now that I’m into the weeds on this I’ll take every little tweak I can get.

One of the best daily emails I get is from Arnold Schwarzenegger, who writes about health and aging.

We have “anabolic resistance “.  What I don’t know is whether those of us who replace missing hormones, especially estrogen and testosterone, are able to accommodate a little better.  

So while I love to eat and love to cook this has become much more intentional for me. With a preponderance of junk food, carbs and bad fats everywhere I really pay attention and use more discipline than ever before.  That means I keep track of food intake on MyFitnessPal several times a week, use a kitchen scale to weigh food, try to hit 120 g of protein a day which is not easy. Inevitably here in the desert I fail on hydration, but I’m getting better. Overall, this has resulted in a reversal of a lot of that loss.

The thing is, I did not dare to think I might still be climbing next season in September.  Now I believe I will be. Not that some serious disease or injury won’t stop me in my tracks, but otherwise I think I can keep going.  So I’d like to keep sharing and swapping information on the subject of health and support performance.
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Just a last thought: I’m also struggling with how not to be a crashing bore with the same family and friends, and how to let Tony be Tony and do his own thing. It’s hard to watch.  I don’t know how to support it yet. 

You're right the body processes protein less efficiently, and requires more as we age. But how did you arrive at 120g daily? To the best of my knowledge, in recreational athletes of all ages (possibly excluding body builders), there's nothing showing benefit over 1.5-1.6 g/kg/day.

Not saying you should avoid it, but realize there's a balance for everything your body uses, including protein. So despite its current status as "halo" macronutrient, even protein in excess can be problematic. 

For example, you probably already know that not all proteins are created equal, but were your aware high animal protein intake, but not plant, is associated with increased risk of developing diabetes? 

Methods: A systematic search was performed using multiple data sources, including PubMed/Medline, ISI Web of Science, Scopus, and Google Scholar, with the data cut-off in May 2023. Our selection criteria focused on prospective cohort studies that reported risk estimates for the association between protein intake and T2D risk. For data synthesis, we calculated summary relative risks and 95% confidence intervals for the highest versus lowest categories of protein intake using random-effects models. Furthermore, we conducted both linear and non-linear dose-response analyses to assess the dose-response associations between protein intake and T2D risk.

Results: Sixteen prospective cohort studies, involving 615,125 participants and 52,342 T2D cases, were identified, of which eleven studies reported data on intake of both animal and plant protein. Intakes of total (pooled effect size: 1.14, 95% CI: 1.04-1.24) and animal (pooled effect size: 1.18, 95% CI: 1.09-1.27) protein were associated with an increased risk of T2D. These effects were dose-related - each 20-g increase in total or animal protein intake increased the risk of T2D by ∼3% and ∼7%, respectively. In contrast, there was no association between intake of plant protein and T2D risk (pooled effect size: 0.98, 95% CI: 0.89-1.08), while replacing animal with plant protein intake (per each 20 g) was associated with a reduced risk of T2D (pooled effect size: 0.80, 95% CI: 0.76-0.84).

Conclusions: Our findings indicate that long-term consumption of animal, but not plant, protein is associated with a significant and dose-dependent increase in the risk of T2D, with the implication that replacement of animal with plant protein intake may lower the risk of T2D.

Emil Briggswrote:

I try to eat a healthy diet now without obsessing about fine details or getting caught up in the latest fad. So plenty of fruits and vegetables, limited sweets and deserts plus sufficient protein.

I don't think it's any more complicated than that though for elite athletes where a 1 percent performance difference can mean the difference between getting on the podium it might be worth the extra effort.

Wholeheartedly agree. Most Americans get plenty of protein, and aren't elite athletes by any stretch. Focussing on whole, minimally processed foods, mostly plants, while maintaining a healthy weight is 99% of the dietary battle. The fixation on macronutrients is unnecessary, and potentially unhealthful at the extremes it's being taken by contemporary pop nutrition. 

Li said  a bunch of weird shit. when we called him on it he pulled the race card.. whatever. 

Built this a few days ago. actually built the structure just before we took our trip. Built the doors in my shop mon and tues . Transported and Installed them wed. 

 full sauna moon a few days ago

its firewood time again. beating me up. 

this maple is big enough that my 20" bar does not reach all the way through the tree. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DJqy2NdBvKG/?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

Re. AI.  

Permabetawrote:

Wholeheartedly agree. Most Americans get plenty of protein, and aren't elite athletes by any stretch. Focussing on whole, minimally processed foods, mostly plants, while maintaining a healthy weight is 99% of the dietary battle. The fixation on macronutrients is unnecessary, and potentially unhealthful at the extremes it's being taken by contemporary pop nutrition. 

Hi Permabeta, 

I admittedly geek out on this stuff.  I have my own reasons... I didn't expect to be climbing at 71.  But I have had plenty of issues with recovery, fatigue, etc.  So, this has been a subject I care about... but I'm sure you know that most people aren't too interested, and probably don't need to be.  

I don't think it's as easy as "most Americans get plenty of protein...".  But it seems to be the norm that people casually say "just eat a balanced diet, you'll be fine."  What exactly is a balanced diet? Plant based, organic?   Virtually every diet out there has 'studies'... I like the Mediterranean studies the best.  But paleo, carnivore, keto... all have their advocates.  The healthiest person I know is a vegan.  But she's also young, and mostly sedentary.  

Mostly, I'm just looking around at my peers who are rapidly failing.  My mom got SO frail towards the end of her life.  Our dinner partners are all weak and have sarcopenia.  I had sarcopenia, and osteoporosis at the age of 55!  I didn't notice it until my doctor noticed it, and said "Lori... you're losing all your muscle mass!".  I was able to turn this completely around, including 'moderate osteoporosis' through change in diet, sunshine (the desert!) and climbing.  My doctor said that was ludicrous... couldn't be done without  bisphosphonates. My last 2 dexa scans proved him wrong. 

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My current sources are:

Dr. Stacy Simms.  "Aim for 1.8 to 2.4 g of protein per kg of bodyweight per day spread throughout the day." , emphasizing leucine rich foods.  This is backed by dozens of studies in her footnotes, and several long chapters on the subject.  (Read her book Next Level)

My Registered Dietician who emphasizes .9 grams of protein per pound of body weight as 'the sweet spot' for me.  

Dr. Gabriel Lyon:  "I recommend that adults consume 30 to 50 grams of high-quality protein at each primary meal."  "Several studies on older adults have shown that older people can experience a 'restorative" effect on MPS from consuming at least 2.5 grams of leucine per meal.  That restorative level requires a minimum of 30 grams of high-quality protein at each meal."  (her book Forever Strong")   She simplifies this by suggesting 30-30-30 (gm per meal) and 20 in a snack.  (plus 30 gms of fiber, and 3 probiotic foods daily).  I like this one! 

I have enjoyed Arnold Schwarzenegger's daily emails more than I can say.  They are short, but well supported.  His team cranks out the meta-analyses on aging and protein... you can chase those links all day long.  Or just read their summaries.  Basically, he recommends 1g/lb protein. 

Erika posted this lengthy article several years ago-- pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/313….  

Resistance Training for Older Adults: Position Statement From the National Strength and Conditioning Association   Wade through it.  Not specifically about protein, but about how the aging process slowly reduces muscle mass, long before it is obvious, partially due to decline in natural HGH and anabolic hormones and how to counteract that, including with protein intake. 

Meta-analyses outlined in ConsumerLab articles. 

My list of studies/support goes on and on... but I finally concluded that "for me" 100-120 grams of protein/day is my sweet spot.  The day following a climbing session seems to be the most important to refuel to prevent my typical collapse.  On every climbing day I have learned to go hard on protein... I have 30 grams of protein for an early breakfast, and a protein shake on my drive to the crag.  I cannot seem to eat WHILE climbing, except to nibble.  But I try to hit that protein shake or have a loaded sandwich as soon as I get home.  Then, dinner, hopefully, heavy on protein.  

The more recent studies on Type 2 diabetes show that higher (not lower!) protein reverses sarcopenia in T2D.  

So, honestly... it's an experiment for me.  An n=1 experiment.  

Love to continue the conversation, but please let me know your nutrition background, and whatever sources you rely on.  Cheers!