How low grade-wise does the appetite for sport climbing go?

So many good points in this thread, so I won’t repeat except to underscore a few key ones and add a few tidbits:

+1 for it being hard to tell sometimes the differences between 5.0 and 5.1 or 5.3 and 5.4, but also +1 for the Gunks having an abundance of g at those grades where the differences really do seem to stand out more clearly.

+ FWIW, I recall the last pitch of the Standard Route on Whitehorse Ledge in NH as being the type specimen of a 5.0.  A quartz dyke staircase, with no move requiring a body position other than straight-in stepping up, but a fall would be 100% fatal, and there’s no pro for at least 80 feet, if I remember correctly.  Granted, it’s been a long time since I climbed it, but it stood out.  I’ve wondered since then if I would rate it differently if it started zero feet off ground and not 500.

+1 for experienced but aging climbers being a category of route consumers that has been below the radar but is growing fast.  One of the easy-to-moderate crags that the OP Tal and I just worked on together last year was intended to serve newer climbers, kids and families and youth groups, and those learning to lead on friction slabs.  It has tickled and gratified me to no end that one of the biggest user groups at the crag since then has been older couples and even a few of the region’s founding fathers of slab climbing who still wanna get after it but not on 5.10 slab with 40 foot runouts. 

I guess if you were unsure if a route was worthy and there was access to the top you could just put an anchor up and see if it gets tr'd.  

Sep M wrote:

I think it’d be awesome if there was a 5.2 sport climb that also had the bolts close enough to the clipping stances to accommodate pint sized punters. Old and young alike like a vertical hike.

In Europe, there are multiple areas that have short routes--often slabby 'highball-size' boulders, very closely bolted for young kids to lead. They are often well-utilized---many climbing families who give their children the experience of being on the sharp end early.
As for us older climbers, yes, it is great to have well-bolted routes in the easier grades to keep us going as our abilities decline but desire to be out there remains. How easy--I think that it should be determined by the nature of the rock that is available at a given area, but should have aesthetic qualities, including potential exposure, and interesting movement requiring more than just walking.

@Tal - can you genuinely tell the difference between 5.3 and 5.4? What about 5.2 and 5.3? 

Bolt what you think will get climbed (you know better than any of us commenting here) and it will get climbed. If it's good it's good. The demographic climbing 5.4 is the same as the demographic climbing 5.2

I think it is terrain-dependent. There are maybe a dozen sport routes under 5.5 at the Red, and I do think it's not just the lack of interest from the developers to bolt them.
I think the floor at the Red is about 5.5-5.6, even though there are a few sport routes nominally below that grade. The 5.5-5.6 routes at the Red are commonly used by guides for the first-time clients, and seem to be about the right difficulty for first-time newbies to have a good experience. 

And it makes sense to have crags with concentrated grades of 5.9 and below, rather than having a random one 5.5 at a crag with 5.12+, even if it were theoretically possible to have a 5.5 at, say, Motherlode, which I do not think is possible.

Lena chitawrote:

I think it is terrain-dependent. There are maybe a dozen sport routes under 5.5 at the Red, and I do think it's not just the lack of interest from the developers to bolt them.
I think the floor at the Red is about 5.5-5.6, even though there are a few sport routes nominally below that grade. The 5.5-5.6 routes at the Red are commonly used by guides for the first-time clients, and seem to be about the right difficulty for first-time newbies to have a good experience. 

This isn’t necessarily exclusive to the Red. It’s just really hard to grade and/or sometimes justify sport routes under 5.5 as they typically get categorized as 4th class or don’t get bolted due to their relative ease and nature of the rock (usually having heavily featured rock and easily protected with gear). The red has just as much low angled rock as anywhere in the US so, while it’s widely known for steep terrain, it’s a great sample for all climbing due to the shear amount of rock, to your point.  

Addressing Tal’s original question. I think if there are routes below 5.6 that warrant bolts, then they should be bolted (based on developers judgement). While they might appeal to everyone they can be done by everyone. Especially if they are good. I find the biggest issue with finding or developing good low grade sport climbs is finding routes that are long enough with high enough quality rock. In my experience most routes in the low grade range (5.5 and below) is typically choss or gets established as a gear route. I would love more fun, quality low grade routes for people to learn on. There might not be as many idiots flailing around on routes over their head this way. 

Botty McBotFace wrote:

Most of these arguments are trash. I see plenty of older climbers still absolutely floating up 5.9 and even 5.12 sport routes as well as trad routes. New climbers need to work through the minimum ticket to entry in the sport, which is "have some sense of of what you're doing, and if you are not feeling confident, go back to working it out in the gym until your ready." Hate to remind everyone but, 5.10 is the break out grade for beginners into more intermediate climbing. So 5.6 should be pretty freakin easy to lead up by most climbers who put the least amount of work in. 

It sounds to me like too many people new to the sport are asking for the outdoors to accommodate they're low level of commitment and low standards of what they think this sport is. A lot of people with a tick list of a handful of 5.7 TR's that couldn't even get that all done in one shot thinking they have a really loud voice thats ready to start making some bold claims about adding more metal to rock so their weak asses can flail up a 5.4 sport route in the red because they cant be bothered to commit to the sport in the most minimal of levels. 

For my older folks out there, you already know the drill. You've been around and know how to access easy routes to keep yourselves safe and satisfied. Theres plenty of lower grade bolted routes out there if you look. Its just not worth it to nature to keep accommodating the cry of the gumby so they don't feel like they're never gonna leave that plastic 5.7 plateau. 

A simple, “it does not whet my appetite” would have sufficed. 

Botty McBotFace wrote:

Most of these arguments are trash. I see plenty of older climbers still absolutely floating up 5.9 and even 5.12 sport routes as well as trad routes. New climbers need to work through the minimum ticket to entry in the sport, which is "have some sense of of what you're doing, and if you are not feeling confident, go back to working it out in the gym until your ready." Hate to remind everyone but, 5.10 is the break out grade for beginners into more intermediate climbing. So 5.6 should be pretty freakin easy to lead up by most climbers who put the least amount of work in. 

It sounds to me like too many people new to the sport are asking for the outdoors to accommodate they're low level of commitment and low standards of what they think this sport is. A lot of people with a tick list of a handful of 5.7 TR's that couldn't even get that all done in one shot thinking they have a really loud voice thats ready to start making some bold claims about adding more metal to rock so their weak asses can flail up a 5.4 sport route in the red because they cant be bothered to commit to the sport in the most minimal of levels. 

For my older folks out there, you already know the drill. You've been around and know how to access easy routes to keep yourselves safe and satisfied. Theres plenty of lower grade bolted routes out there if you look. Its just not worth it to nature to keep accommodating the cry of the gumby so they don't feel like they're never gonna leave that plastic 5.7 plateau. 

I love the irony about whining about others being "soft" for wanting to spend their own money and time to bolt routes for others. Did it hurt your feelings that much that you need to be that concerned about what other people do? OP asked a simple question, you have no idea what he is going to bolt or what quality the routes are.

What is even funnier is these comments always seem to come from the peanut gallery that don't use their real names and have private ticks.

Honestly I would rather listen to someone climbing the grade on what would be fun for them than some anonymous coward on MP, spraying about how badass they are and how soft the gumbies are. I think 5.7 is pretty easy too but I don't need to wave my e-peen around about it. There is a simple way to deal with this for those that don't think easy routes should be put up, don't climb them! I mean you are probably too busy doing rad stuff anyway right?? 

Botty McBotFace wrote:

Most of these arguments are trash. I see plenty of older climbers still absolutely floating up 5.9 and even 5.12 sport routes as well as trad routes. New climbers need to work through the minimum ticket to entry in the sport, which is "have some sense of of what you're doing, and if you are not feeling confident, go back to working it out in the gym until your ready." Hate to remind everyone but, 5.10 is the break out grade for beginners into more intermediate climbing. So 5.6 should be pretty freakin easy to lead up by most climbers who put the least amount of work in. 

It sounds to me like too many people new to the sport are asking for the outdoors to accommodate they're low level of commitment and low standards of what they think this sport is. A lot of people with a tick list of a handful of 5.7 TR's that couldn't even get that all done in one shot thinking they have a really loud voice thats ready to start making some bold claims about adding more metal to rock so their weak asses can flail up a 5.4 sport route in the red because they cant be bothered to commit to the sport in the most minimal of levels. 

For my older folks out there, you already know the drill. You've been around and know how to access easy routes to keep yourselves safe and satisfied. Theres plenty of lower grade bolted routes out there if you look. It’s just not worth it to nature to keep accommodating the cry of the gumby so they don't feel like they're never gonna leave that plastic 5.7 plateau. 

I know plenty of 5.12 climbers (myself included) who really enjoy mellow sport routes with exposure, views, fun moves. Climbing doesn’t have to be about commitment/pushing the grades, and scaring the sh*t out of yourself, and it shouldn’t be part of the “cost of entry” definition.  

Botty McBotFace wrote:

Most of these arguments are trash. 

It's rich to call other people opinion trash....which to me makes me think you're kinda a trashy human.

I see plenty of older climbers still absolutely floating up 5.9 and even 5.12 sport routes as well as trad routes.

What is older to you? 60's? 50's? Maybe a 45 year old with injuries that no longer can "get after it"? You cast a wide net, and I don't think it honest to talk for the old timers out there....who have already said in thread they appreciate easy bolted lines.....

New climbers need to work through the minimum ticket to entry in the sport, which is "have some sense of of what you're doing, and if you are not feeling confident, go back to working it out in the gym until your ready." Hate to remind everyone but, 5.10 is the break out grade for beginners into more intermediate climbing. So 5.6 should be pretty freakin easy to lead up by most climbers who put the least amount of work in. 

It sounds to me like too many people new to the sport are asking for the outdoors to accommodate they're low level of commitment and low standards of what they think this sport is. 

Sounds to me you're gate keeping what real climbing is and who real climbers are.

A lot of people with a tick list of a handful of 5.7 TR's that couldn't even get that all done in one shot thinking they have a really loud voice thats ready to start making some bold claims about adding more metal to rock so their weak asses can flail up a 5.4 sport route in the red because they cant be bothered to commit to the sport in the most minimal of levels. 

For my older folks out there, you already know the drill. You've been around and know how to access easy routes to keep yourselves safe and satisfied. Theres plenty of lower grade bolted routes out there if you look. Its just not worth it to nature to keep accommodating the cry of the gumby so they don't feel like they're never gonna leave that plastic 5.7 plateau. 

You don't associate as "old" clearly by the way you talk, so again, maybe keep your input to your own lived experience (you're not old yet, so you can't speak to that experience) let your elders have their input and stop trying to speak for them, whipper snapper.

Botty McBotFace wrote:

It sounds to me like too many people new to the sport are asking for the outdoors to accommodate they're low level of commitment and low standards of what they think this sport is. A lot of people with a tick list of a handful of 5.7 TR's that couldn't even get that all done in one shot thinking they have a really loud voice thats ready to start making some bold claims about adding more metal to rock so their weak asses can flail up a 5.4 sport route in the red because they cant be bothered to commit to the sport in the most minimal of levels. 

Wow, how did no one even notice this is a bot? /s

Seriously though, there are so many past threads where this comment might have been a bit more fitting, but no one in this thread is decrying the perceived injustice of current bolting practices, or asking “setters” to retrobolt the classics for diverse body types. Almost all who chimed in were speaking on behalf of others, not demanding new routes for themselves, and not with particularly strong feelings in favor of them.

Even those in favor of super easy routes think they should be added sparingly and only in places that make sense. You could certainly disagree and consider all 5.easy sport routes unnecessary overdevelopment, but no need for undeserved personal attacks on a newer climber here. As far as loud voices, I’ve only seen one one this thread; they don’t have any ticks, but it seems like they’re a total crusher! 

It seems to me the easy sport routes are actually quite popular. The problem being that most people think it's safe to fall on sport routes and it's really not safe to fall on the majority of routes that are under 5.7 . I watched someone break an ankle on a 5.6 at Bubba city. He fell repeatedly at the crux. A lot of easier routes are just not steep enough to fall off or have large blocks on them or ledges.. which isn't to say you can't get injured on a harder route. But they tend to be less things to hit because they're  steeper and have smaller  features.

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

@Tal - can you genuinely tell the difference between 5.3 and 5.4? What about 5.2 and 5.3? 

Brother I can’t tell the difference between 5.12 and 5.13 most days, my grade fidelity is truly atrocious Edit: MP Admin this is a comment on how every grade feels hard to me, not how everything feels easy

Thanks for the feedback everyone, they’ve given me a lot to consider when making decisions and I appreciate all of them - even Botty’s wrong opinion.

As a thank you, here’s a pic from said low-grade crag from a new line we put up last week. Cheers!

Tal Mwrote:

Brother I can’t tell the difference between 5.12 and 5.13 most days, my grade fidelity is truly atrocious

Weird flex, but ok 

I and many others I know love easy sport climbs. I generally think of 5.4-5.6 as the "low grade" I'm looking for. But I can easily imagine that a 5.2 or even 5.0 jaunt would delight many folks as well because you're right that the distinction between 5.0-5.3 is probably indiscernible for many people. I will say that I often can tell the difference between 5.4 and 5.6 (or at least I have an opinion on what it should feel like!). 

There are lots of reasons why people can benefit from these climbs:

-My first outdoor lead was a super closely bolted, short route that was fantastic for me as a beginner outdoor leader, and would have been great for a kid learning to lead as well. It would've been almost impossible for me to fall on it; but I sure wouldn't have climbed it without bolts, and I probably wouldn't have begun leading outside as soon if there weren't routes like that available.

-I've been climbing for years and love rock, but am not very strong. I'm never very strong, but all of us go through ups and downs with injuries and phases of life. It remains a joy to be able to go outside and put up ropes myself (even when I have rope gun friends!). During periods when I'm weaker or less fit in general, it can be nice to have the option to take out new or casual climbers who don't have lead skills and will enjoy low grades with you, rather than always going to a crag with your rope guns where you might be able to just struggle up their warm-up on TR. Sidebar: It isn't cool to tell people that there's a bar for strength under which you should just stick to the gym because you're not a real rock climber. You're a rock climber if you like climbing rocks and have the skills to do so safely.

-Easy climbs with accessible approaches are especially awesome. Kids, paraclimbers, injured folks, and their friends and family all benefit!

I strongly agree that it's not wise to bolt crappy rock just to have more easy routes. That creates a lot of risk for less experienced folks who don't have the knowledge to keep themselves and their partners safe. I don't agree that you should only bolt things that are safe to fall on - there's obviously a difference between knowing you shouldn't fall because you'd hit ledgy terrain on a low-angle route and literally free soloing. It sucks when the easy routes at the crag are super runout because "you shouldn't fall" or "if you fell, you'd get hurt anyway".

Tal, thank you for being a thoughtful and caring developer!

I'm a new bolter, and most of my routes are 5.9 and below. Recently, I bolted a 5.3 and a 5.4, and restored a 5.6 anchor. On the first weekend the 5.4 opened, two groups of 18–22-year-olds with no climbing experience lined up to try it. A few weeks later, a beginner who had been scared off by a 5.7 returned—this time with new shoes and renewed motivation after seeing the new beginner-friendly routes. She literally traveled across the country just to try the 5.4, since no other climbs that easy were bolted elsewhere on the island. Afterward, she said, “This is the climb I should have started on,” and her friends agreed.

There is most definitely a large and unmet appetite for climbing between 5.0 and 5.9 in my country, which I am bolting to meet!

I found that the low-grade bolted sport routes I have bolted so far are great for the following:

1. warming up at the start of the session, I often do laps on them
2. cooling off at the end with an easy climb.
3. introducing new people to climbing
4. great for new leaders to practice the mechanics of bolting and working on lead headspace
5. great for kids and more mature climbers

Andy Rwrote:

This 5.3 at Rumney has 600+ ticks surprisingly:

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105888037/clip-a-dee-doo-dah

That's an amazingly fun climb, regardless of grade (and one of the few easy/moderate multi-pitch sport routes I can find in the east)

There is definitely interest in very low grade sport climbs.  A few years ago we went and did some routes on The Safari in Clear Creek Canyon and there were numerous parties there queued up to climb the 5.3s.  Not every sport climber is grade chasing and many people want easy grades to learn to lead or bring their non-climbing friends out for a day.  The issue with the lower grades in my opinion is that they often get bolted by people who climb much harder with bolt spacing that reflects their comfort at that grade.  Do not bother bolting an easy route if you are going to space bolts out 40 feet apart, bolt it safely the same way you would bolt a 5.12 if you are a 5.12 climber or else you are just doing a disservice by bolting it.

Adam Wwrote:

There is definitely interest in very low grade sport climbs.  A few years ago we went and did some routes on The Safari in Clear Creek Canyon and there were numerous parties there queued up to climb the 5.3s.  Not every sport climber is grade chasing and many people want easy grades to learn to lead or bring their non-climbing friends out for a day.  The issue with the lower grades in my opinion is that they often get bolted by people who climb much harder with bolt spacing that reflects their comfort at that grade.  Do not bother bolting an easy route if you are going to space bolts out 40 feet apart, bolt it safely the same way you would bolt a 5.12 if you are a 5.12 climber or else you are just doing a disservice by bolting it.

Agree with this with the only counterpoint that somethings are nearly impossible to bolt to be fully safe. Some things are just too ledgy. The developer should still make an effort though.

Really any rap bolted sport route should be as G as possible/reasonable. R rated sport routes in general are dumb, regardless of grade. 

I do think it's doubly important for easy routes though where someone might not have the experience to reasonably asses the level of danger of a route. I have lived in places where the <5.9 "sport" routes are mostly horror shows from days passed and it gets people into trouble.

Julian Jwrote:

I'm a new bolter, and most of my routes are 5.9 and below. Recently, I bolted a 5.3 and a 5.4, and restored a 5.6 anchor. On the first weekend the 5.4 opened, two groups of 18–22-year-olds with no climbing experience lined up to try it. A few weeks later, a beginner who had been scared off by a 5.7 returned—this time with new shoes and renewed motivation after seeing the new beginner-friendly routes. She literally traveled across the country just to try the 5.4, since no other climbs that easy were bolted elsewhere on the island. Afterward, she said, “This is the climb I should have started on,” and her friends agreed.

There is most definitely a large and unmet appetite for climbing between 5.0 and 5.9 in my country, which I am bolting to meet!

I found that the low-grade bolted sport routes I have bolted so far are great for the following:

1. warming up at the start of the session, I often do laps on them
2. cooling off at the end with an easy climb.
3. introducing new people to climbing
4. great for new leaders to practice the mechanics of bolting and working on lead headspace
5. great for kids and more mature climbers

That's super rad! I'm sure it's cool to see people enjoying your routes :)