Accept that bouldering and followed closely by sport climbing has taken over from rock climbing .

Skinner fixed pro top-down on Stigma, if memory serves (which it rarely does, anymore). That was the beef there. Top-down fixed-pro is part of the essence of sport climbing. 

City Park wasn't in my patch, so I don't know what protection tactics he leveraged. I do recall someone smeared axle grease in a key part of the route (near the top?), to make a statement about Skinner's tactics. Maybe the locals were trying to say, keep your Wyoming/Yosemite hybrid sport techniques off our ground up cracks, or some such.

Contrast with Kauk's Magic Line, established ground up, on lead, with no top-down preview and no pre-placed pro: the essence of trad. 

You hardcore definition types don't handle the gray area of sprad, or trort routes. Please forgive the true tradsters out there who know in their bones its not just cams and shit that make it trad. Ground-up, on-lead, no pre-placed pro except the occasional, grudging bolt to protect otherwise unprotectable runnouts, also placed on lead and NOT hanging from hooks, though Bachar Yerian got a freer pass from all but the most dogged purists like Higgins.

I also think there is a misunderstanding of Paul Ross at play here. The man cut his teeth on the sport many generations ago, in a land far away from US climbing. I for one give him the benefit of doubt. Being kinda not young myself,  I have feel for his perspective. But not knowledge. 

Eric Craigwrote:

I also think there is a misunderstanding of Paul Ross at play here. 

Are you implying that most of the MP users do not understand that  Paul Ross is shit posting?

• amariuswrote:

Are you implying that most of the MP users do not understand that  Paul Ross is shit posting?

How do you get that from what I wrote? 

Guess I am not certain what "shit posting" is.

Is your above post an example of shit posting? 

Guess I am trying to give everyone a little benefit of the doubt. 

I apologize if your post is not an attack, but it kind of reads like one to me. 

Children these days. Yahoo,  go for it !

Am I shit posting now? Oh what fun!

I believe that the actual situation is that Paul --coming from when and where he does--believes in what he wrote ( well, sort of), but did make the post to stir things up ( shit-posting) because that, too, is part of his background and style.

As far as whether routes should be graded for onsight or with beta, my understanding is that the grade should reflect the onsight difficulty ( otherwise the onsight/flash distinction wouldn't make any sense), and believe that is the common understanding. Given this, it seems that any area that bases the grades other than for an onsight ascent, this should be noted in the guidebook or appropriate MP page. Not specifying this approach is just sandbagging.

Cherokee Nuneswrote:You hardcore definition types don't handle the gray area of sprad, or trort routes. Please forgive the true tradsters out there who know in their bones its not just cams and shit that make it trad. Ground-up, on-lead, no pre-placed pro except the occasional, grudging bolt to protect otherwise unprotectable runnouts, also placed on lead and NOT hanging from hooks, though Bachar Yerian got a freer pass from all but the most dogged purists like Higgins.

There are literally terms, that are universally accepted for many of these things you claim to be grey areas. For example pre-hung traditional pieces is a pink point by technical definition. The rest of what you describe, how you approach a climb, tactically, has nothing to do with the definition or description of the route itself. Rather, that only applies to the individual climber.  “Sprad” and “Trort” seem to be combining tactics with definitions/descriptions of routes. While useful for historical purposes (and one’s own, individual logbook) they are irrelevant when looking strictly at the climb itself (I.e. is protected by gear, bolts, a mixture of both, or otherwise).

sport climb = G or PG rated  100% fixed gear usually bolts but occasionally a pin. 

Mixed is  a mix of bolts and gear but more bolts than gear

Tard is any R or X rated  fixed gear climb or any climb that requires more trad gear than bolts. 

pretty simple shit. some trad is  committing multi pitch, some is cragging.  Whatever. 

Eric Craigwrote:

I also think there is a misunderstanding of Paul Ross at play here. The man cut his teeth on the sport many generations ago, in a land far away from US climbing. I for one give him the benefit of doubt. Being kinda not young myself,  I have feel for his perspective. But not knowledge. 

I agree there is misunderstanding, I have climbed a number of Paul Ross routes and looked at a lot more. He is from an entirely different world than most of us. Virtually all of his climbing was onsight FA's (he did over 500 FAs), he almost never repeated existing routes. So when he talks about "a climb is 2 grades easier with beta" keep that in mind

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

I fear that our differences of opinion here relies upon how the route is graded. Is the route graded based on how it felt onsight, or after beta has been determined?

My experience tells me that modern day routes are based on the beta that was sussed out, and not onsight. This is evident by many climbs being downgraded due a newly discovered beta.

Your logic implies this though….and since you’re an OG I am now taking +2 grades on any climb I onsight and +1 on all flashes. 

I am afraid these days climbing terms are getting a wee bit  too complicated for me , like beta sussed out ??? ... seems like too much ado about nothing. I and my friends climbed first ascents   up to about 2019 the only difference from my first in 1954 was more sophisticated gear to carry !. The term onsight is pretty modern ,it used to just mean one starts at the bottom of the crag and climb upwards and I usually asked my second to grade the climb . 

How does aiding fit in, Paul? A lot of your classic ascents were aided first, no? People come at climbing in all different ways, so I agree the terms are often blurry, depending on the participants focus and they shift over time and even regions too. A stretched example: when people call a continuous crack with g rated protection possibilities when ever you want it "sport climbing" ( I think that is a pretty sloppy use of the term), but they are just thinking of the safety factor.. You can drive yourself nuts parsing out an exact, fits all definition of trad climbing, That is why I like the modern usage of sport = relatively safely protected climbs using all fixed pro (edge cases might use a piece or two of optional gear to avoid a little runout), with Trad = you need to place some gear at least or there are big runouts between bolts, and then have the style of the FA as a separate thought that may or not be relevant to the later climber.

Aaron Kwrote:

I agree there is misunderstanding, I have climbed a number of Paul Ross routes and looked at a lot more. He is from an entirely different world than most of us. Virtually all of his climbing was onsight FA's (he did over 500 FAs), he almost never repeated existing routes. So when he talks about "a climb is 2 grades easier with beta" keep that in mind

Thanks for your reply.  I don't get your last sentence though. What does "a climb is 2 grades easier with beta" mean, or imply, or ?, to you? There's truth in that statement. It also is non sensical. It's both. 

There are literally terms, that are universally accepted for many of these things you claim to be grey areas.

Literally!  

I like puppies (and kittens) a lot

Paul Rosswrote:

I am afraid these days climbing terms are getting a wee bit  too complicated for me , like beta sussed out ??? ... seems like too much ado about nothing. I and my friends climbed first ascents   up to about 2019 the only difference from my first in 1954 was more sophisticated gear to carry !. The term onsight is pretty modern ,it used to just mean one starts at the bottom of the crag and climb upwards and I usually asked my second to grade the climb . 

Sport, trad, and mixed routes are too complicated for ya Ol’ chap?!

M Spraguewrote:

How does aiding fit in, Paul? A lot of your classic ascents were aided first, no? People come at climbing in all different ways, so I agree the terms are often blurry, depending on the participants focus and they shift over time and even regions too. A stretched example: when people call a continuous crack with g rated protection possibilities when ever you want it "sport climbing" ( I think that is a pretty sloppy use of the term), but they are just thinking of the safety factor.. You can drive yourself nuts parsing out an exact, fits all definition of trad climbing, That is why I like the modern usage of sport = relatively safely protected climbs using all fixed pro (edge cases might use a piece or two of optional gear to avoid a little runout), with Trad = you need to place some gear at least or there are big runouts between bolts, and then have the style of the FA as a separate thought that may or not be relevant to the later climber.

Its getting too complicated for my head ... Yes lots of climbs were aided first then became free excellent climbs probably and often lots of gear was left in situe   because the first ascents were done on sight ,which not only involves not knowing what comes next (multi pitches) and often you are cleaning the climb on lead ,..loose rock and other stuff . I always found this very enjoyable . Fairly often when a section had been passed I could see that after  some aid had was used and now cleaned it would  be free climbable..  but it was over and done with.. more adventure lay ahead . It was the unknow that I found attractive plus of course the risk . As I got older I did run it out more as I did like that feeling of risk ... Maybe that's why I did not  get into sport climbing much  as it was pretty much all physical . Certainly I think crack climbing is more popular in the States than in  the UK ...mainly because they are so few (no) cracks in the UK  like Indian Creek , and since cams were invented its easier to have a "rest"  . ... I had to learn crack climbing  when I moved to the desert sandstone. . I did get asked if I would mind bolts being added to some of my climbs ... Not a problem ..I had my fun ..  I just have one regret I left Colorado and its sun and moved to the UK ....Big mistake... I have been a US citizen since 1975.  Have a nice day. 

Paul Rosswrote:

Its getting too complicated for my head ... Yes lots of climbs were aided first then became free excellent climbs probably and often lots of gear was left in situe   because the first ascents were done on sight ,which not only involves not knowing what comes next (multi pitches) and often you are cleaning the climb on lead ,..loose rock and other stuff . I always found this very enjoyable . . . .

Paul, you and I are the same age (older than dirt), and it's interesting to compare your description of climbing in Great Britain during the 1950s and my own experiences here in the USA. There was the surge of interest in getting up the great granite walls of Yosemite after Harding pointed the way, but then there was a backing away from intensive use of protection implements, especially pitons, and for a number of climbers of that Golden Age generation, free climbing routes that had been done with aid initially became a challenge. 

Your comments about starting at the bottom and going up, exploring as you climb, resonates strongly with me. My first real mountain climb was wandering up the east face of Longs Peak at age 17 - knowing very little about rock climbing - wearing JC Higgins work boots, and discovering a route as I went. And for awhile, as I gained experience and strength, pushing free solo exploration until I reached my limit of difficulty and risk. Actually, I never enjoyed risk and would rather do some rock gymnastics closer to the ground. But even so, the last part of my climbing life (1987-2010) I did nothing but very light bouldering and modest free solo rambling. 

Nevertheless, the title of this thread brings a smile.

Paul Rosswrote:

I usually asked my second to grade the climb . 

I wouldn't do that because my partners would invariably give me an F.

I think a more interesting question is: How much of a fad are bouldering gyms?

I like BMX and used to ride and race a bit, the sport has a shadow over it, because it was so huge in the 1980s, and then the bubble burst and it contracted hugely. The timeline was about 20 years for the golden age. 1971 was the start with "On Any Sunday", in the 1980s it peaked in popularity and cultural relevance with "E.T.", plus "BMX Bandits" with Nicole Kidman and "Rad".... and then by 1993 everyone was broke!

It's like with stock tips, when your Uber driver and random work colleagues are "getting into bouldering" it's about to burst right? How about all these indoor hold manufacturers selling macros for 1000's of dollars. Apparently your typical modern bouldering gym has a 100k budget for holds. I hear that, and I'm like yeah, everyone's going to be broke within the next decade.

Sam Mwrote:

I think a more interesting question is: How much of a fad are bouldering gyms?

I like BMX and used to ride and race a bit, the sport has a shadow over it, because it was so huge in the 1980s, and then the bubble burst and it contracted hugely. The timeline was about 20 years for the golden age. 1971 was the start with "On Any Sunday", in the 1980s it peaked in popularity and cultural relevance with "E.T.", plus "BMX Bandits" with Nicole Kidman and "Rad".... and then by 1993 everyone was broke!

It's like with stock tips, when your Uber driver and random work colleagues are "getting into bouldering" it's about to burst right? How about all these indoor hold manufacturers selling macros for 1000's of dollars. Apparently your typical modern bouldering gym has a 100k budget for holds. I hear that, and I'm like yeah, everyone's going to be broke within the next decade.

Man. I wish. But ain’t finna happen. 

Bouldering gyms have been around about as long as gyms have been around…see CATS in Boulder. Now, consider that bouldering provides for more effective training, is more accessible and cost effective, and requires less space, I doubt that bouldering gyms are going anywhere.