Accept that bouldering and followed closely by sport climbing has taken over from rock climbing .

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

So I can take 2 grades above the consensus grade anytime I onsight a climb? Come on now. You're old enough to know how this works. 

In regards to your original comment, modern (bold) climbers may not be as bold as they were 40-50 years ago, I agree 100%, but to say that bouldering cannot be bold is a bit ignorant. 

I think you misread my comment . ... I did say some boulders were dangerous ,the high ball type ,but  very few of these boulders are soloed  ,as some are as high as a singe pitch climb. . If you top rope or climb a route several times you know all the moves and compared to on sighting a climb I think the practice reduces the difficulty perhaps up to two grades. I did not say if you onsight a climb it becomes two grades higher ... However on sighting may come closer to the  grade ...Anyway maybe you have  practiced trad climbs before  leading them ... I am not familiar with this. .  

I have always felt that the published grade should be the onsite grade not the rehearsed redpoint grade. Especially for multi pitch.  The fact that the locals have a secret hold is not going to help the traveling climber who just crawled out of their van and has never climbed here before. 

Frank Steinwrote:

Sport climbing does not mean “fixed gear.” 

Wrong thread.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

I have always felt that the published grade should be the onsite grade not the rehearsed redpoint grade. Especially for multi pitch.  The fact that the locals have a secret hold is not going to help the traveling climber who just crawled out of their van and has never climbed here before. 

Not all routes can be measured by an onsite attempt.  Many routes are incredibly beta intensive and would receive an incredibly high grade but go many number grades lower on a redpoint.

That is kind of my point. Certainly for multi pitch moderates that we assume are going to be attempted onsite it should either be graded for the onsite or have a disclaimer. Just to keep the tourists from getting into trouble. 

Frank Steinwrote:

Sport climbing does not mean “fixed gear.” Sport climbing is tactics. For example, BY is not a sport climb, but you could argue that something like Ruby’s actually is. 

Maybe that’s your definition.  Most people define the disciplines by the specific equipment.  Boldness can be found in any style of climbing.  

Saying Indian Creek is sport climbing is very similar to telling someone Bachar-Yerian is a sport climb.  Neither are an adequate description.  It’s just ego and sandbaggery.

Calebwrote:

Maybe that’s your definition.  Most people define the disciplines by the specific equipment.  Boldness can be found in any style of climbing.  

Saying Indian Creek is sport climbing is very similar to telling someone Bachar-Yerian is a sport climb.  Neither are an adequate description.  It’s just ego and sandbaggery.

The literal definition of sport climbing explicitly mentions bolts. Frank’s just a hater. 

Paul Rosswrote:

I think you misread my comment . ... I did say some boulders were dangerous ,the high ball type ,but  very few of these boulders are soloed  ,as some are as high as a singe pitch climb. . If you top rope or climb a route several times you know all the moves and compared to on sighting a climb I think the practice reduces the difficulty perhaps up to two grades.

I fear that our differences of opinion here relies upon how the route is graded. Is the route graded based on how it felt onsight, or after beta has been determined?

My experience tells me that modern day routes are based on the beta that was sussed out, and not onsight. This is evident by many climbs being downgraded due a newly discovered beta.

I did not say if you onsight a climb it becomes two grades higher 

Your logic implies this though….and since you’re an OG I am now taking +2 grades on any climb I onsight and +1 on all flashes. 

James -wrote:

This might sound silly at first but think about it: Most people run and race on artificial surfaces. Most people swim in swimming pools. Most people lift weights that were created specifically to be lifted. Most people ski on cleared runs that are groomed every day; maybe even on manmade snow. Etc.

I guess there's degrees of artificial but that's not what I meant. That's more akin to sport climbing vs. traditional climbing. 

I meant outdoor vs. gym (plastic) climbing, an example would be indoor skiing. Where the slope, the climate, the snow is all manmade. But I'd guess that has less than 1% of activity compare to outdoor skiing. It's not taking over. Similarly there's indoor sky diving. I just looked it up and partially answered my own question. There's 3 M 'real' sky dives a year and iFLY says they do 2 M people a year. So I wouldn't be surprised if that overtakes real sky diving at some point.

Gloweringwrote:

I guess there's degrees of artificial but that's not what I meant. That's more akin to sport climbing vs. traditional climbing. 

I meant outdoor vs. gym (plastic) climbing, an example would be indoor skiing. Where the slope, the climate, the snow is all manmade. But I'd guess that has less than 1% of activity compare to outdoor skiing. It's not taking over. Similarly there's indoor sky diving. I just looked it up and partially answered my own question. There's 3 M 'real' sky dives a year and iFLY says they do 2 M people a year. So I wouldn't be surprised if that overtakes real sky diving at some point.

Or propels people to try real skydiving. 

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

The literal definition of sport climbing explicitly mentions bolts. Frank’s just a hater. 

Skinner did City Park and Stigmata as sport routes. There is no fixed gear on these, but they are for all practical purposes sport routes. However, Bachar climbed BY, protected entirely by bolts, as a traditional climb in traditional style. BY is a trad route.

City Park and especially Stigmata were highly controversial when they were freed. BY, not so much. 

Frank Steinwrote:

Skinner did City Park and Stigmata as sport routes. There is no fixed gear on these, but they are for all practical purposes sport routes. However, Bachar climbed BY, protected entirely by bolts, as a traditional climb in traditional style. BY is a trad route.

City Park and especially Stigmata were highly controversial when they were freed. BY, not so much. 

I'm assuming you mean "The Stigma", and not "Stigmata"....but please explain how they are sport routes...are there bolts I'm unaware of...

Hangdoging, rehearsal of individual sections, and even preplaced pro. And yes, Stigma, not Stigmata. 

Frank Steinwrote:

Hangdoging, rehearsal of individual sections, and even preplaced pro. And yes, Stigma, not Stigmata. 

I’m curious, have you climbed any of these routes?  Somehow my primitive brain will take your argument more seriously if you have.

I have not, out of my pay grade, but did climb plenty of hardish Creek routes as well as other single pitch, pro protected routes in places like the Gunks. I honestly consider these things as sport climbing, and would wager that Skinner, if he was still with us, would agree. Trad routes go ground-up, with no rehearsal or previewing. 

Frank Steinwrote:

Hangdoging, rehearsal of individual sections, and even preplaced pro. And yes, Stigma, not Stigmata. 

Todd used some of what we now consider to be 'sport climbing tactics' ( back then sport climbing in the US was still pretty much in it's infancy so the exact definitions were not yet well-established) when he did those routes, but that still doesn't make them sport climbs as we currently define them. That definition, as, I believe most understand it, requires fixed protection ( usually bolts, but sometimes might involve fixed pins or even fixed tie-offs) sufficient for ( in most cases) a 'G' safety rating. These routes are usually, but not always, established from above, with efforts made for the routes to be clean and with reasonable clipping positions. While the 'tactics' that you mention are still used on sport climbs ( and on plenty of gear-protected routes!!!), especially on routes near or at ( or beyond) a given climber's limits, these days there are very many sport climbs that are routinely on-sighted by most aspirants.

Edit to add: In response to your last post. You are still conflating the 'tactics' used on a given ascent of a route with the definition of how a route is 'defined'---big difference!!!! Even if you are limiting your definition as to how the route was established on the FA, it still doesn't work, as plenty of what pretty much anyone but you considers to be traditional routes required a good amount of preliminary effort ( and, not infrequently multiple attempts) before they were finally successfully climbed.
And, while I didn't know Todd well at all, I disagree that he would have considered those routes to be 'sport climbs'--even as that phrase was understood back then, though fully acknowledging that he used sport climbing style tactics to climb them.

"Accept that bouldering and followed closely by sport climbing has taken over from rock climbing"  Don't have time to read this thread, but no doubt wonder if somehow gym and sport climbers think in some weird dimension that those of us who have never bouldered or stepped foot in a gym or spend much time at a crag for that matter, in any way see this as a negative? versus the huge benefit it really is.  That I have personally noticed how much less people, their dogs, etc, are in the backcountry climbing multi-pitch trad or alpine routes.  These past ten years have been a blessing and I for one hope the trend continues.  Folks who live in places like Calico Basin near Red Rock might not be as thrilled, but I sure am.

To me the essential distinction between a sport route and a trad route is: "Do I have to concern myself with the protection?" On a sport route, the answer is no. All I have to do is show up with a rack of draws and focus on the moves (within reason, of course; one should always be mindful of the state of fixed protection and potential fall trajectories, etc.). Whereas on trad routes, the protection is a major part of the consideration. This is why BY, say, is a trad route, because the runouts are an essential consideration of whether someone can tackle that route (as opposed to a sport route of the same grade), as well as why the tactics Frank is describes (preplacing gear, and essentially headpointing) also fit within the definition of trad - preplacing gear still means I have to consider the protection as a major part of the experience. 

Frank Steinwrote:

Hangdoging, rehearsal of individual sections, and even preplaced pro. And yes, Stigma, not Stigmata. 

You're referring here to sport climbing tactics used on an otherwise trad route. That does not change the nature of the route, just the climber. 

There was an attempt bitd that I had some involvement with to free what had until then been an aid seam. One individual climbed ground up placing gear without rehearsal, lowering, pulling and starting over. The other did TR rehearsal and pre placed gear before finally sending on the pre placed gear. Choose your style but the route remains a trad route. In time it was red pointed in pure style.

Frank Steinwrote:

Hangdoging, rehearsal of individual sections, and even preplaced pro. And yes, Stigma, not Stigmata. 

You’re only, half assed, valid response is preplaced pro. Though that is a pink point by definition and has nothing to do with the route itself, but rather the individual climber who climbed said route.

Replace hangdogging with powerspotting and you’ve now categorized every boulder problem as a sport route as well…