I wonder what are the oldest climbing gym walls that are still in use. My first experience in a commercial gym was the North Wall in Crystal Lake IL in about 1994. Just looked them up and not only are they still in business, it looks from the photo gallery like they still have the same walls I remember from back then.
Well, of the early gyms I climbed at, Albuquerque Rock Gym, Paradise and Thrill Seekers are no longer. They just couldn’t compete with more modern gyms, although Paradise was awesome. Clipper City in Baltimore had huge potential, but sadly, it burned down. BRC is still going strong.
I do need to correct my earlier post. Paradise predated BRC by a year.
Sport Climbing Center (Now called Springs Climbing Center) has been in the same location, unwavering, since 1991, under the same ownership more-or-less. Still open and recently expanded (same building).
I have found it increasingly hard to find trad partners in comparison to sport or bouldering. Especially if I want to get on something above 5.10. But I don’t think any particular style has “taken over”. Many people are like me. We do it all, but convenience and simplicity are a factor. The popularity of gym climbing may decline some over time, but it’s here to stay. I can’t see outdoor climbers abandoning gyms. And gym climbing has its own strong style and culture. As far as boldness, it does seem less popular to take major risks in climbing. That may be a natural learning curve as the sport matures. Or it may be that more people in the sport live lifestyles with value structures that don’t elevate risk as much. Also, the envelope of risk in climbing has been pushed quite far. The risks an average climber can take don’t even seem like achievements any more. El Capitan has gone solo, there are 5.14 head points and V15 highballs taller than average rope routes. So why would I risk my neck to for tall V7 or take the sharp end on a 5.11x? I actually do those things sometimes, but for intrinsic reasons not cultural ones. The times have changed and the climbing is better than ever. I can accept that.
Actually this thread could've been "Indoor climbing is taking over from outdoor climbing". And technically indoor climbing isn't "rock" climbing. Is there another sport where the 'artificial' version of it has taken over in popularity vs. the 'real' version. There's indoor skydiving, but that's pretty rare compared to climbing gyms.
A quick search says: In 2023, an estimated 6.36 million people participated in indoor climbing in the United States, while approximately 2.57 million people engaged in traditional/ice/mountaineering climbing.
As far as risk goes, I'm sure the percentage of climbers that pursue 'risky' climbing has gone WAY down. However the total number of 'risky' climbers may have gone up. 20 years ago I may have seen 1 or 2 free soloers a day on moderate climbs. Nowadays I may see a dozen. In Yosemite at least.
Is there another sport where the 'artificial' version of it has taken over in popularity vs. the 'real' version.
This might sound silly at first but think about it: Most people run and race on artificial surfaces. Most people swim in swimming pools. Most people lift weights that were created specifically to be lifted. Most people ski on cleared runs that are groomed every day; maybe even on manmade snow. Etc.
This might sound silly at first but please think about it: Most people run and race on artificial surfaces. Most people swim in swimming pools. Most people lift weights that were created specifically to be lifted. Most people ski on cleared runs that are groomed every day; maybe even on manmade snow. Etc.
@Paul Ross - have you seen the "boulders" the youths are doing these days? Regarding some of the highballs, the consequences are often worse than the worst sport/trad fall...outside of taking a ground fall, which usually feels like the belayers fault (exceptions being poor gear placement or a rouge failed bolt).
Yes I have seen them.. more like soloing a short trad climb ,however they are few compared to the majority of boulders... Maybe there has been a few injuries ,but not seen and fatalities ? . These ascent are rarely done on sight, like most of todays difficult trad climbs are practiced sometimes for month's before a lead is attempted and usually by then all important holds are marked by chalk. After one has climbed a route several times I think the grade is lowered at least two grades, and I did solo such familiar climbs . Even on what sometimes may turn out to be a low grade climb I and some of my friends preferred the adventure of on sighting, and on a first ascent it give the most satisfaction in rock climbing. I think you may agree with this ?. I had fun doing this from 1954 in the UK to 2015 in the US.... However I admit on popular known climbs its nice to have the holds marked white . .. Finally I also have to admit I have never been on a indoor climbing wall ,as leaving that experience for when I get old. All The Best. Paul
Yes I have seen them.. more like soloing a short trad climb ,however they are few compared to the majority of boulders... Maybe there has been a few injuries ,but not seen and fatalities ? . These ascent are rarely done on sight, like most of todays difficult trad climbs are practiced sometimes for month's before a lead is attempted and usually by then all important holds are marked by chalk. After one has climbed a route several times I think the grade is lowered at least two grades, and I did solo such familiar climbs . Even on what sometimes may turn out to be a low grade climb I and some of my friends preferred the adventure of on sighting, and on a first ascent it give the most satisfaction in rock climbing. I think you may agree with this ?. I had fun doing this from 1954 in the UK to 2015 in the US.... However I admit on popular known climbs its nice to have the holds marked white . .. Finally I also have to admit I have never been on a indoor climbing wall ,as leaving that experience for when I get old. All The Best. Paul
Yes I have seen them.. more like soloing a short trad climb ,however they are few compared to the majority of boulders... Maybe there has been a few injuries ,but not seen and fatalities ? . These ascent are rarely done on sight, like most of todays difficult trad climbs are practiced sometimes for month's before a lead is attempted and usually by then all important holds are marked by chalk. After one has climbed a route several times I think the grade is lowered at least two grades, and I did solo such familiar climbs .
So I can take 2 grades above the consensus grade anytime I onsight a climb? Come on now. You're old enough to know how this works.
In regards to your original comment, modern (bold) climbers may not be as bold as they were 40-50 years ago, I agree 100%, but to say that bouldering cannot be bold is a bit ignorant.
How so? With the exception of a few towers, the Creek is the very definition of sport climbing, and pretty much all of the harder Gunks routes were done with sport tactics (at least after the age of the yo-yo).
OK, I have no idea who Paul Ross is, but I am sure happy google was there to help me.
Anyways, found an Outside article dated 2017, that mentions Paul being 80yo. Probably 88 in the year 2025. Said he free soloed a 5.4 at the tender age of 15 somewhere in the England's Lake District. Implies he is British -probably with the ethic of pissing on everybody, or is it pissing everybody off, or is it taking a piss on everyone - I can never get the idiomatic British English quite right with pissing, shitting and other bodily functions.
Anyways, here he is having fun roller skating and boxing -
How so? With the exception of a few towers, the Creek is the very definition of sport climbing, and pretty much all of the harder Gunks routes were done with sport tactics (at least after the age of the yo-yo).
You and I have different dictionaries to be sure. I seldom encounter fixed gear on desert routes other than rap stations. I've seen this claim here before and while it seems to be in fashion it is imo ridiculous.
You and I have different dictionaries to be sure. I seldom encounter fixed gear on desert routes other than rap stations. I've seen this claim here before and while it seems to be in fashion it is imo ridiculous.
Sport climbing does not mean “fixed gear.” Sport climbing is tactics. For example, BY is not a sport climb, but you could argue that something like Ruby’s actually is.
So I can take 2 grades above the consensus grade anytime I onsight a climb? Come on now. You're old enough to know how this works.
In regards to your original comment, modern (bold) climbers may not be as bold as they were 40-50 years ago, I agree 100%, but to say that bouldering cannot be bold is a bit ignorant.
I think Paul meant that the consensus/agreed upon grade could, conceivably be lowered due to rehearsal of moves/sequences, not that you could inflate the grade. I could be wrong, though. In my opinion, the headpoint style epitomizes his statement, not to say it doesn’t reduce the inherent danger, it just makes the climbing more predictable.
So I can take 2 grades above the consensus grade anytime I onsight a climb? Come on now. You're old enough to know how this works.
In regards to your original comment, modern (bold) climbers may not be as bold as they were 40-50 years ago, I agree 100%, but to say that bouldering cannot be bold is a bit ignorant.
I think you misread my comment . ... I did say some boulders were dangerous ,the high ball type ,but very few of these boulders are soloed ,as some are as high as a singe pitch climb. . If you top rope or climb a route several times you know all the moves and compared to on sighting a climb I think the practice reduces the difficulty perhaps up to two grades. I did not say if you onsight a climb it becomes two grades higher ... However on sighting may come closer to the grade ...Anyway maybe you have practiced trad climbs before leading them ... I am not familiar with this. .
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