New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #34

Made it…I’m 50.

Live Perchedwrote:

Made it…I’m 50.

Welcome!

The Great Debate of the AAC at their annual meeting in 1986 is an interesting read. What some leading climbers of the time thought of trad vs sport and other issues.

John Gillwrote:

The Great Debate of the AAC at their annual meeting in 1986 is an interesting read. What some leading climbers of the time thought of trad vs sport and other issues.

I remember this.

Were pretty brutal times for trad climbers.   

John Gillwrote:

The Great Debate of the AAC at their annual meeting in 1986 is an interesting read. What some leading climbers of the time thought of trad vs sport and other issues.

Really great article!

I would not have thought that Kauk was so against bolting on rappel or that Lynn Hill was not adamantly  for it (not that she was against it, she had a very moderate view).

Very worthwhile read for those of us who were not climbing in 1986 (or, like me, went climbing that year for the first time ever!).

John Gillwrote:

The Great Debate of the AAC at their annual meeting in 1986 is an interesting read. What some leading climbers of the time thought of trad vs sport and other issues.

Euro dogs…sound delicious. 

John Gillwrote:

The Great Debate of the AAC at their annual meeting in 1986 is an interesting read. What some leading climbers of the time thought of trad vs sport and other issues.

Would be interesting to see how their views have changed(or not) since 1986.

What were your views, if any, at the time?

I loved the 90’s when sport climbing became the new thing to do. The Wind Rivers had so many less climbers. Now that “trad” is the rage the popular areas and routes are being overwhelmed.

Edit: By saying trad is in vogue I am not talking about cragging routes per se.  What I am seeing is way more people doing long alpine rock climbs in the mountains than just a few years ago.

Norm Larsonwrote:

I loved the 90’s when sport climbing became the new thing to do. The Wind Rivers had so many less climbers. Now that “trad” is the rage the popular areas and routes are being overwhelmed.

The rage appears to be just a fad?

I see gear for sale in Bay Area, my guess is a few people try it then realise it’s not as fun as Sport climbing then hold the gear for a bit then sell it. I was able to get an unused totem for 70$. There’s a bunch of ice climbing gear going for 50% retail nearly unscathed.

Or, it’s just to shut up us older trad people when a 5.12 gym grade sport climber does Equinox as if it were a walk up.   

Always disliked the sport ascending approach but felt if there was an area of questionable rock that could be sacrificed and had no history of climbing or ethics then that style of ascent would be ok. Discriminitory, yeah but I don't care. Unfortunately that style of ascent took over and now those ethics are every where. I personally had no problem removing bolts placed on rappel from historically trad areas. Could care less about hang dogging.

Kevinmurraywrote:

Always disliked the sport ascending approach but felt if there was an area of questionable rock that could be sacrificed and had no history of climbing or ethics then that style of ascent would be ok. Discriminitory, yeah but I don't care. Unfortunately that style of ascent took over and now those ethics are every where. I personally had no problem removing bolts placed on rappel from historically trad areas. Could care less about hang dogging.

Agree with no hanging, but removing bolts is a bit extreme for me.

Li Huwrote:

Agree with no hanging, but removing bolts is a bit extreme for me.

I felt the need to place bolts in those areas was extreme , so they went in , I took them out . Pretty soon they stopped going in, funny how that worked out.

Had a great day at Fairview Mt yesterday. We had a group of six very friendly folks, ticking off routes one after another. 

I took an action photo that I think captures the high-paced spirit of the day: two people belaying and one eating potato chips.

Gary Thomaswrote:

Would be interesting to see how their views have changed(or not) since 1986.

Well, shortly afterward things got ugly, at least in Yosemite anyway...

Here' a couple letters to the editor from Mountain Magazine from the late 1980's.

Recently Ron Kauk established the first rappel-bolted route in Yosemite in nearly 18 years. The climb, Punchline (5.12b), is a spectacular line ascending the outside face of the Entrance Exam Buttress at Arch Rock. The climb, accepted by nearly all locals as an instant classic, enjoyed a brief and celebrated life before John Bachar returned to the Valley and chopped the route. This led to heated confrontations between Bachar and longtime locals Ron Kauk and Mark Chapman. During one particularly heated discussion between Bachar and Chapman a punch was thrown and Bachar ended up in the dirt of the Camp 4 parking lot. The climb has recently been re-bolted and other rap-bolt projects are underway.

While at this point both Bachar and Kauk have their followers, it seems the majority of climbers couldn't care less about how routes are established. What they do care about is the flagrant misuse of bolts regardless of how they are placed. Most climbers feel the main criteria for judging a route's validity should be the finished product and whether or not it is a worthy addition to the Yosemite climbing community, not how the route was established.

Putting these ethical dilemmas aside, Yosemite seems to be finally awakening from the big sleep that has engulfed it for the past eight years and is poised to retake its traditional position at the forefront of world climbing.

Mark Chapman"

John Bachar replies...

Biased and Destructive Reporting

 Dear Editor,

I was saddened to read the piece in the Mountain 127 Info section entitled "Yosemite Brawl Over Euro-Ethics as Bachar Bashing Season Opens'. This report more appropriately belongs in the Opinion section rather than next to the factual reports which regularly appear in the Info column. Not only is the sensationalisation of violence demeaning to myself and other local traditional climbers, but the article does nothing constructive to help the involved parties solve their problems. Is Mountain magazine's sole purpose to make a profit, or do they also wish to Bachar Speaks Out help the climbing community? In such a heated issue the magazine should have contacted people involved on each side of the controversy.

As far as Mr. Chapman's opinionated report goes there are many errors and outright lies. He states that the rappel-bolted route Punchline was ". . . accepted by nearly all locals as an instant classic . . .”. The fact is that nearly all locals were appalled by Mr. Kauk's actions and he is without a doubt aware of it. Only a year ago he was telling younger climbers that ground up climbing was the only acceptable way to establish a route. Had anybody else rappel bolted a route it would have been removed. Apparently, it is acceptable for Mr. Kauk to break his own rules.

Chapman states that "During one particularly heated discussion . . . a punch was thrown and Bachar ended up in the dirt of the Camp 4 parking lot." The fact is that only Mr. Chapman was "heated" and when he could not continue the discussion in a rational manner, he punched me without warning in the neck. I had to go to the hospital to receive treatment for nerve damage to my neck and upper arm. Many would argue that the removal of rappel bolts is an offensive act, but it must be said that the placement of rappel bolts is just as offensive to the ground-up climber as the removal of rap placed bolts is to the rap-bolter. If a top-down climber has the right to place rap-bolts on a ground-up climber's future route, then the ground-up climber has just as much the right to remove those bolts. In everyday life many conflicts arise and are solved without resort to physical violence. The use of physical violence is a totally unacceptable approach to the solution of any problem and should not be condoned by anyone, the press included.

He further states that ". . . the majority of climbers couldn't care less about how routes are established". The fact is that the vast majority of locals do care about how routes are established and even if it were the case that the majority of climbers didn't care about how routes are established, it must be recognized that minorities have rights too. By looking back in history to a time when a majority of people were in favor of the enslavement of the negro minority or when a majority favored the slaughter of the American Indian, we can learn that the tyranny of the majority is not always just. In fact, it is often irrational and mob-like. The traditional ground-up climbers of Yosemite have rights that must be respected.

Mr. Chapman also states that " . . . Yosemite seems to be awakening from the big sleep that has engulfed it for the past eight years . . .". The fact is that Yosemite produces some of the hardest ground-up routes in the world to date and the standards are increasing every year. Only because top-down routes are equated with traditional ground-up routes via the usage of the same numerical rating system do Yosemite-style ground-up first ascents appear inferior. After all what is harder, doing an on-sight, on-the-lead first ascent of a 5.13b or doing a top-down, rehearsed, pre-protected 5.14a? They are two different games, born of opposite approaches and producing different results. Perhaps Mr. Chapman could awaken from his own state of deep sleep by attempting to repeat some of the face climbs recently established by talented young climbers like Steve Schneider or Kurt Smith. The sad fact is that neither Mr. Kauk nor Mr. Chapman have even tried to repeat the hardest routes of today's gifted young Yosemite climbers.

Unfortunately, the main questions in this controversial issue were not even alluded to in the report over the "Yosemite Brawl". How can the freedoms and rights of both parties be preserved and respected? Can top-down rappel-bolting methods co-exist with traditional ground-up methods within the same climbing area? The speed of rappel-bolting will allow rappel bolters to take away all of the best new routes before ground-up climbers even have a fair chance to attempt them. Within a short period of time the local ground-up climbers will have virtually no first ascent projects. This unfair imbalance will cause even greater friction within the climbing community and assure the continuance of more bolt chopping and violence. The speed of rap-bolters vs. the slowness of ground-up climbers causes a natural resource usage conflict that must be addressed if we are to see a viable solution to this matter,

People bashing and bolt removal are most certainly not the best solutions to this difficult issue. Neither does the insensitive exploitation of people's problems by the press help the situation. It is sad to see such biased and destructive reporting in a prestigious magazine like Mountain. Hopefully, in the near future Mountain can offer its readers a more enlightening and thorough analysis of this emotionally charged issue that is not only tearing apart Yosemite but other climbing communities as well.

John Bachar

As far as my views on all this, I am certainly in the ground up camp, but I know that beyond 5.12 requires rehearsal by nearly everyone, so I do not look down folks hang dogging these routes.

Routes no matter how they are established, should be given the space to stand on their own, and present day route developers need to be cognizant of what came before and not squeeze or write over the top of routes established long before they entered the picture. People have crossed this line at Smith in the past, and right around the turn of the century I braved the potential wrath and removed the offending routes. Remarkably enough the person who put them up wound up agreeing with my decision and thus far Smith has been spared from similar squeeze jobs.

Here's a bit of dialog from supertopo about that event...

MisterE

Hey, is that the bastard HardlyVisible that chopped my route in your picture, Mouse?

 Why I oughta...

Big Mike

Hardly Visible chopped your route E??

MisterE

You guys are too easy. Yes he did, but we are cool about it - friends and climb together.

 It was years ago and I probably deserved it

Here's a pic of the rap bolter and his better half.

Fossil…. Those two and another couple almost cost us an entire area!!

The new roots- at any cost- ethnic sometimes blinds people to what is important.

The NPS obviously likes cliffs covered with plants, flowers and moss vs scrubbed clean with shiny bolts.

I agree with the NPS

EDIT: to avoid burning one turn… 

live …. Welcome. Are you looking forward to getting all that SS $$$??? 

Fossil… thanks for sharing this.  Reading Bachar’s words straight from his own mouth was enlightening.  I wish he was here today to see where he wound up (philosophically).  

Long before I knew much about climbers I watched a video that included a longer clip of Bachar climbing. I just stopped everything and rewatched it… different from all the other climbers, including Kauk, he was so graceful, intense and strong.  An art form.  I can see why he didn’t want it any other way.  

I wonder if there has ever been a satisfactory solution. Today I was wandering around Little Hunk where a 5.14 was established.  I’m sure it couldn’t have been done without rehearsal and rap bolting (?). So would Bachar have preferred to take a pass on that route?  

—-

I appreciate the conversation we have had here about vaccines. I’m still recovering from the flu which has had me down for three weeks and in the ER once.  This time I really felt it as a diabetic… so it’s time.  I have learned that many of the flu cases locally turned into pneumonia… 

It’s not that I was ever against vaccines. I just have a natural resistance to anything not absolutely necessary. Anyway now I’ll be signing up for “one of each”.   

Lori wrote: 

“Today I was wandering around Little Hunk where a 5.14 (the New Deal) was established.  I’m sure it couldn’t have been done without rehearsal and rap bolting (?). So would Bachar have preferred to take a pass on that route?“

I belayed Scott Cosgrove when he climbed the New Deal, on a brilliant winter’s day in February of 1988, on Super Bowl Sunday. He warmed up by soloing Left Ski Track, then led the New Deal, first try, with no falls, placing all the draws on the lead. Based on that date, it’s a candidate for the first 5.14a sport route in America.

At the time, both Bachar and Cosgrove were guiding for my Vertical Adventures climbing school, and after Bachar’s chopping of the bolts, I remember one extremely tense morning when they both showed up at the same time at the Hidden Valley parking lot to meet their clients.

 I refer to that period of climbing history as “The Bolt Wars,” and it lasted longer at Joshua Tree than almost any other area in the country.

Here’s what Scott wrote about the New Deal:

“I found the New Deal, after guiding ZZZZ and imagined a climb going up that wall, without looking closely. I inspected it closer and saw all the holds and tried to do it ground up. But the holds were too friable and I felt hooking and breaking them off would ruin the climb. So, I decided to rap bolt it and created a shiite storm in doing so.

It took me somewhere like 18 days to do it, I think, I had never climbed a 14a and the grade did not exist in California, but a 14a Euro-climber tried and failed on the line, shortly after my red-point. He later traveled to Smith Rock and climbed JB Tribout’s, To Bolt or Not to Be, very quickly. So, I would say that Alan's rating should stand, as at the time I really didn't know what 13d or 14a was, just that it was damn hard for me and I had to give it a number.

I was in school, guiding full time and training, I had no time or money to go on the road and repeat any other 14a, but spent the time climbing routes close to home. I named the climb after the FDR plan to put America back to work in the Great Depression, but that metaphor was lost on the many rap bolt haters, who thought I was rubbing it in their face. I felt the small compromise in ethics would lead to higher numbers.

Bachar actually chopped the line and declined the fist fight I offered, over the event. He later apologized, and gave me nine bolts back, and we remain friends despite our ethical differences. Something I have always tried to do.

People need to realize that climbing was evolving at that time and we all had different thoughts on how to proceed. I felt that always climbing ground up and not hang dogging was limiting my ultimate ability, and therefore took a walk on the dark side.”

Here’s a shot I took of Cosgrove back in the 90’s during our ground up attempt at the first free ascent of the Northwest Face route on Higher Cathedral Spire in Yosemite (First ascent by Robbins/Frost in 1961). We managed to free the first 4 pitches, including the infamous “Chimney of Horrors” pitch, where Robbins had free climbed an unprotected 5.10a overhanging flared chimney, then began nailing an A3 crack risking an 80-foot factor 2 fall. But we ran out of time and had to go back to work.

The entire route was eventually freed in 2018 by Kevin Jorgensen (of Dawn Wall fame) after over 50 days of effort over two summers, with the crux weighing in at 5.13d. Here’s a video of the route- it’s called Blue Collar.

I believe in hang dogging and French freeing, whatever gets me to the next belay!  Giving up is way worse IMO, right behind taking nasty falls. 

Gary Thomaswrote:

What were your views, if any, at the time?

For your amusement, here is what Smart has to say about the Great Debate, page 203, Royal Robbins The American Climber:

“The AAC hosted a debate in Boulder about the controversy. Stonemasters Ron Kauk and Lynn Hill defended the new tactics. John Gill and Royal joined the side of the traditionalists. Gill said he “wasn’t going to compete with some anorexic little f---t in tights.” Hill felt grilled by McCarhty for hanging on the rope on a new route. Royal accused Kauk of having roughed up the opponents of rappel bolting. Royal’s tone throughout the fracas remained authoritative, but never quite respectably official.”

An interesting passage in the book, especially since neither Royal nor I were there. I suspect my "quote" was probably Bachar. 

My views at the time? I didn't really care. Almost all the roped climbing I did was before that time. My interests were promoting bouldering as a sport and roaming over untamed rock in modest free soloing exploration. There was still plenty of unclimbed stuff. Not so much today.

Norm Larsonwrote:

Great posts above. All true opinions/thoughts  based on many years of experience. 

One other large change of note I see is beta. There is so much information available today on any climb that has already been done.
This is true of rock climbs but in a mountaineering sense that change is even more profound. So many of my early expeditions were inspired by a photograph I saw somewhere. After the initial inspiration I had to figure out which country or range the peak was in, what the peak was called, where exactly the peak was, and how to approach the climb and how to descend. Often that involved finding and ordering maps that might take weeks or months to obtain. After that it might take a week or more in some dirty third world town or Alaskan bar to figure out the logistics to just get to the peak.
Now so much of that information is just a couple of clicks away on your phone. 

With mountaineering (especially on big peaks) I think improvements in weather forecasting have made a difference. Yes people still get caught in storms but it's a lot safer now that it would have been 50 years ago.