Discuss Trad Multipitch Gear Selection (other than fall pro)

I've noticed a transition in what I carry over the decades. Originally I carried a lot less not because I was trying to be light but because I didn't own much kit, I learnt to get by with what I had. As my income went up so did my rack weight and I feel I forgot a lot of the tricks I had picked up. More recently as I've got older my tolerance for lugging a heavy pack on long mountain approaches has definatly declined so I'm trying to pare down.

A lot depends on who I'm climbing with if its someone I know I'll be swapping leads with every pitch then I will cut pack on slings and just use the rope to build belays this can help reduce weight, being British I tend to be on 2 half ropes which really lends its self to using the rope. If I'm gong to be doing all or most of the leading then I take 2 120 slings, one each for top and bottom of pitch. Never even seen a bolted belay so quad type set up not advantagous really.

Also think hard about where you really need a screwgate/locker and where a snap is perfectly fine. Another obvious now trick but one that took my limited brain surprisingly long to figure out is to use my 'bail crabs' to build belays and not have them stuffed in my pack with my bail tat.

When it comes to bail kit there is an argument in not bothering when on a route well within your capability (where it is very unlikly you will need it) and acepting that if you mess up and do for some reason need it you will have to sacrifice some 'proper' kit. That up to the individual I suppose.

Never carried more than one belay device but have had to do everything with munters and other work arounds when a less experienced partner has forgotten to bring theirs so been using mine.

For those who claim that rope anchors are only suitable when swapping leads (several mentioned in this thread), I suggest to open your minds and do your homework (or at least stop spreading this false and persistent rumour). There are several different styles of rope anchors (who would have thought??!!), some of which work nicely when leading in blocks.   #ifyoureallywanttoditchyourcord

Patrik wrote:

For those who claim that rope anchors are only suitable when swapping leads, I suggest to open your minds and do your homework (or at least stop spreading this false and persistent rumour). There are several different styles of rope anchors (who would have thought??!!), some of which work nicely when leading in blocks.

Very true I was more thinking about simplicity with a less experienced second.

Edit: I'm a fan of the 'magic carabiners' method.

Patrik wrote:

For those who claim that rope anchors are only suitable when swapping leads (several mentioned in this thread), I suggest to open your minds and do your homework (or at least stop spreading this false and persistent rumour). There are several different styles of rope anchors (who would have thought??!!), some of which work nicely when leading in blocks.   #ifyoureallywanttoditchyourcord

Care to enlighten us? All the methods I can think of offhand at a minimum require you to effectively rebuild the anchor.

Big Red wrote:

Care to enlighten us? All the methods I can think of offhand at a minimum require you to effectively rebuild the anchor.

In my experience, whether swinging leads or guiding a route, I build belays with two carabiner points of attachment, thus providing redundancy as well as connectivity of all pieces. When I bring my partner up I have already planned where their two cloved carabiners go. It is simple and quick and does not require a master point or any modifications to the belay pieces.

Agree with all above that you've got way too many lockers.

You're also overlooking that some of the gear you have omitted from the list as "fall pro" has double function. For example, on multi pitch I use a Mammut Smart alpine as my belay/rappel device. No need for GriGri + ATC. However, it raps MUCH better if extended. But I don't carry a special "extension" sling or PAS. So once at the top of a route and setting up a rappel I take a double length alpine sling that we've already carried to extend gear, and set that up as my PAS and my rap extension. I really like to use the rope for anchor building but I do sometimes carry a 240 cm sling if we're not swapping leads.

Also remember that two opposed regular carabiners = a locker. So if you find yourself wanting the security of a locker, perhaps on a bolt before a particularly sketchy move, just use double and opposed regular carabiners. Same can go for clipping into an anchor with your PAS. 

ddriver wrote:

In my experience, whether swinging leads or guiding a route, I build belays with two carabiner points of attachment, thus providing redundancy as well as connectivity of all pieces. When I bring my partner up I have already planned where their two cloved carabiners go. It is simple and quick and does not require a master point or any modifications to the belay pieces.

This.  I'm usually doing all the leading these days as I teach my daughters to climb, and switch-overs need not be complicated.

I’m really surprised how many people default to bolted belays.  I guess it’s more common than I think.

Caleb wrote:

I’m really surprised how many people default to bolted belays.  I guess it’s more common than I think.

You aren't the only one, I'm a little surprised too. It's mostly gear anchors at Tahquitz and in the Sierras where I climb the most. 

• GriGri & locking carabiner

I don't typically bring a heavy grigri.

• Pre-tied quad on 180cm triple length sling & 2 locking carabiners

Lots of options for anchors. The weight difference isn't much. Use what you feel comfortable with. I usually have 2 anchor setups for multipitch.

• Sterling Hollowblock (prussik) & 1 locking carabiner

I have 3-4 regular cord prussiks with me for extra slings, bail slings, emergency prussiks, third hands etc.

• Petzl Connect Adjust w/ clove hitched HMS carabiner pre-rigged, for personal tether and extended rappel

I've never brought something to just use as a tether. I just use a double length sling during raps, and the rope during climbing.

• (2) spare locking carabiners

I have one locking biner for my tether (rope or sling) and one for each anchor as a masterpoint. 

I have my "self rescue" kit which is one large non locking biner with 3 prussiks, a tiny climbing knife, and a 1/8 roll of tape for first aid, etc.

People get hung up on the number of items they bring, but I focus more on weight. A gri gri weights as much as 12 dyneema slings. I'd rather get by with an ATC than skimp on slings.

Glowering wrote:

I don't typically bring a heavy grigri.

People get hung up on the number of items they bring, but I focus more on weight. A gri gri weights as much as 12 dyneema slings. I'd rather get by with an ATC than skimp on slings.

Save a few ounces vs. potentially hurt or kill your leader if you get knocked out, get pulled up and collide with them in a fall and lose control, etc etc. A Gri Gri or its ilk is like driving with a seatbelt, an ATC is like driving without one. You could be the best driver in the world but sometimes shit happens.

There has been a lot of good advice on this thread but no one has given the best piece of advice, "look at what you used, did not use, and what you like to have with you at all times". This line of thinking helps to guide you in what gear you need and do do not need. I use it for backpacking, climbing, traveling, and just about everything I do that requires equipment.

Your gear list is pretty similar to mine and fairly standard to what an AMGA guide would recommend for someone getting into multi-pitch climbing.

Like you, i prefer to carry a GriGri and guide plate device. I hate top belaying with an ATC and would much rather work with a GriGri since I only ever climb on single rope systems.

My partner and I both carry a 21' cordo. We climb in in the southeast a lot and i find it helpful to have the extra length to sling blocks, trees, and gear all in one go. If it ends up too long for the stance, we just tie a bigger knot to eat up the slack. We also use these to tie quads for rappels when we have multiple. If we are just doing one rappel we will clip into the chains or bolts.

I always carry what I call my "rescue kit" - 1 tied friction hitch loop and a tied 120cm sling with a small locker. Makes me feel better if I ever need to haul something or someone, or get myself out a sticky situation. My partner also carries one too.

I carry a dual connect adjust in my pack that only gets used for rappels. I have found it to a nicety for multiple rappels with adjustability. I will also just use a 120cm nylon sling to make a rappel extension. Sometimes my rescue kit becomes my rappel extension too. When I am at anchors though, I just use the rope because it is fast, easy, and uses no additional equipment. I personally do not like leading with anything attached to my belay loop.

My ATC only gets used for rappels anymore but I feel better having it with me in case I drop my GriGri.

I tend to take a lot of newer climbers out with me so I carry a few extra lockers, sometimes up to 5 free lockers. It just makes me feel better knowing that I will never have to sacrifice security for myself or someone else just to save some weight. I also carry 2-3 extra non-lockers for anchors incase I need them.

I would almost always rather climb or hike heavy if it means I have peace of mind and comfort. Try the method of reviewing your gear and see what you are able to pair down over the next season!

Jiggs Casey wrote:

Save a few ounces vs. potentially hurt or kill your leader if you get knocked out, get pulled up and collide with them in a fall and lose control, etc etc. A Gri Gri or its ilk is like driving with a seatbelt, an ATC is like driving without one. You could be the best driver in the world but sometimes shit happens.

That is a ridiculous analogy. A Gri Gri is definitely not foolproof. There have been plenty of accidents involving a Gri Gri. In fact there was an accident last week in red rocks in which initial reports are saying that someone died because they were using a carabiner block rappel set up so they could rappel on a single line (presumably with a Gri Gri or other auto locking device) and tried to rappel on the wrong strand. Rappelling is just one example of auto locking devices being less safe than ATC. the suggestion that plate devices like an ATC or Reverso aren’t safe to climb with is ridiculous. If that was the case companies like black diamond and Petzl wouldn’t be allowed to sell them as belay devices. They wouldn’t have UIAA certs and the like. Every piece of climbing gear has some element of risk and climbers need to understand the pros and cons of each piece of gear and what the best tool/technique is for each situation. Having guided for 20 years and climbing for 30 I have noticed that a lot of people use poor technique while belaying with a Gri Gri (not holding the break strand or feeding rope incorrectly. Thinking the Gri Gri is a hands free device when it isn’t) people seem to be much more attentive belayers with a plate since they know they have to pay attention. Both devices can be used safely or unsafely and it is up to the climber to know how to safely use their gear.

Dan Mydans wrote:

That is a ridiculous analogy. A Gri Gri is definitely not foolproof. There have been plenty of accidents involving a Gri Gri. In fact there was an accident last week in red rocks in which initial reports are saying that someone died because they were using a carabiner block rappel set up so they could rappel on a single line (presumably with a Gri Gri or other auto locking device) and tried to rappel on the wrong strand. Rappelling is just one example of auto locking devices being less safe than ATC. the suggestion that plate devices like an ATC or Reverso aren’t safe to climb with is ridiculous. If that was the case companies like black diamond and Petzl wouldn’t be allowed to sell them as belay devices. They wouldn’t have UIAA certs and the like. Every piece of climbing gear has some element of risk and climbers need to understand the pros and cons of each piece of gear and what the best tool/technique is for each situation. Having guided for 20 years and climbing for 30 I have noticed that a lot of people use poor technique while belaying with a Gri Gri (not holding the break strand or feeding rope incorrectly. Thinking the Gri Gri is a hands free device when it isn’t) people seem to be much more attentive belayers with a plate since they know they have to pay attention. Both devices can be used safely or unsafely and it is up to the climber to know how to safely use their gear.

Yep. It’s called ‘moral hazard’ - recklessness brought on by a false sense of security. Definitely an important balance to be aware of; fear can certainly kill - but lack of it kills just as surely.

Dan Mydans wrote:

That is a ridiculous analogy. A Gri Gri is definitely not foolproof. There have been plenty of accidents involving a Gri Gri. In fact there was an accident last week in red rocks in which initial reports are saying that someone died because they were using a carabiner block rappel set up so they could rappel on a single line (presumably with a Gri Gri or other auto locking device) and tried to rappel on the wrong strand. Rappelling is just one example of auto locking devices being less safe than ATC. the suggestion that plate devices like an ATC or Reverso aren’t safe to climb with is ridiculous. If that was the case companies like black diamond and Petzl wouldn’t be allowed to sell them as belay devices. They wouldn’t have UIAA certs and the like. Every piece of climbing gear has some element of risk and climbers need to understand the pros and cons of each piece of gear and what the best tool/technique is for each situation. Having guided for 20 years and climbing for 30 I have noticed that a lot of people use poor technique while belaying with a Gri Gri (not holding the break strand or feeding rope incorrectly. Thinking the Gri Gri is a hands free device when it isn’t) people seem to be much more attentive belayers with a plate since they know they have to pay attention. Both devices can be used safely or unsafely and it is up to the climber to know how to safely use their gear.

I never said a Gri Gri was foolproof, I said it is safer than an ATC because it has an assisted brake. You cannot argue that an ATC is just as safe for lead belay or bottom managed top rope as a Gri Gri. This isn’t an opinion, one has an assisted brake, the other does not. It’s really that simple. You can make up whatever you want in your mind to justify using one vs the other but objectively speaking one device is safer than the other, assuming both are being used correctly. Real life example: super experienced climber and guide service owner (I’ll leave it at that) was belaying with a Gri Gri, on top rope, and was caught off guard and pulled into the rock. Luckily they were wearing a helmet, but they were actually knocked unconscious from this. Had they been belaying with the ATC, what do you think the outcome of this would have been? I’ll answer for ya, the climber would have decked.

I’m sorry, but you just cannot say that the ATC is just as safe as a Gri Gri, it’s factually untrue and nothing you can come up with can change that. Look, you could go a whole climbing career only using an ATC and never have an accident, but that doesn’t mean the device is just as safe as one with an assisted brake.

Lastly, your point about rappelling with one being less safe is also false. The knot block method itself is the failure point there, not the device. Specific to the recent accident, would it have made ANY difference if they had done a knot block rappel using an ATC or a Gri Gri? No, it wouldn’t have.

Jiggs Casey wrote:

Lastly, your point about rappelling with one being less safe is also false. The knot block method itself is the failure point there, not the device. Specific to the recent accident, would it have made ANY difference if they had done a knot block rappel using an ATC or a Gri Gri? No, it wouldn’t have.

Of course it would have made a difference in the accident in red rocks. They were only using a carabiner block because in order to rappel with a Gri Gri you need to use a single strand. Had they been rappelling with an ATC type device in this situation they never would have been using the carabiner block and would have rapped on a double strand which is much less likely to be set up incorrectly. In that case the decision to rappel on the Gri Gri required the use of the carabiner block which is what caused the accident. Read the thread in the accident forum. That seems to be the overwhelming consensus. Yes a brake assist can be helpful but I think the difference in safety is being dramatically overstated. In many cases using a brake assisted device can reduce risk but in others it can increase risk with the accident in red rocks being an obvious example. It’s important to be able to look at situations critically to determine the safest system to use without having blinders on and thinking there is only one answer to the question. 

Congratulations everyone, we made it to 4 pages before thread drift turned this into another grigri vs. ATC thread !!! That’s gotta be a new record !!!!!!!

Dan Mydans wrote:

Of course it would have made a difference in the accident in red rocks. They were only using a carabiner block because in order to rappel with a Gri Gri you need to use a single strand. Had they been rappelling with an ATC type device in this situation they never would have been using the carabiner block and would have rapped on a double strand which is much less likely to be set up incorrectly. In that case the decision to rappel on the Gri Gri required the use of the carabiner block which is what caused the accident. Read the thread in the accident forum. That seems to be the overwhelming consensus. Yes a brake assist can be helpful but I think the difference in safety is being dramatically overstated. In many cases using a brake assisted device can reduce risk but in others it can increase risk with the accident in red rocks being an obvious example. It’s important to be able to look at situations critically to determine the safest system to use without having blinders on and thinking there is only one answer to the question. 

So it’s the Gri gris fault? Not the failure to test the knot block? You could just as easily knot block with an ATC, if you have a 6mm tag you’re not rapping the regular way, you’re knot blocking, regardless of the device. Again you can delude yourself all you want, one device is just safer than the other, it’s a fact, not opinion.  I gave you a real life example where a climber would have been hurt or killed if the belayer was using an ATC, of course you just ignored that.

Jiggs Casey wrote:

So it’s the Gri gris fault? Not the failure to test the knot block? You could just as easily knot block with an ATC, if you have a 6mm tag you’re not rapping the regular way, you’re knot blocking, regardless of the device. Again you can delude yourself all you want, one device is just safer than the other, it’s a fact, not opinion.  I gave you a real life example where a climber would have been hurt or killed if the belayer was using an ATC, of course you just ignored that.

Much in the way that you attribute the grigri as saving the day in your example, it could be the case that the belayer wouldn't have been "caught off guard" had they been paying the kind of attention that a tube-style device requires. And for rappelling accident in RR, they weren't using a tag line and wouldn't have used a knot block, so the "what ifs" you interject aren't applicable. Gotta try to keep our standards of evidence fair and consistent, and not let blind spots bias our thinking too much. 

I do think, if isolating device against device only, an ABD would be safer than non-ABD. But when you put them in the hands of the average human then the waters get muddied real quick. And you have to admit, for a device that has been touted as being sooo safe, there are still a whole lot of accidents involving grigris. It's all human error of course, but that's unfortunately part of the equation that can't be ignored. With the grigri, that error is often letting their guard down with lackadaisical belay practices, or using more complicated and error-prone systems to justify bringing their grigri. 

And for the OP, there are double-slotted ABDs (I have a giga-jul) that accomplish all of what tube device can do, and pretty much all of what a grigri can do. Certainly lighter than carrying both, or a middle ground if only carrying one. I know people will also say that a cord or anchor sling is a specialty, single-purpose piece, but I've used both as pro when the situation calls for it. My Beal Jammy is rated to 22kN I think. If I run out of slings I've got no problem with clipping as pro. 

Trying to recover this from the Grigri vs. the world argument, I'm gonna piggyback on Thomas Worsham's advice. Try different equipment and track what works for you. You can make lists or take pictures of the gear you bring, and then reflect on what worked (or didn't) after the trip. Another option is to include gear beta on your MP ticks while it's still fresh in your memory. That way you can see if doubling up on that one cam size (or bringing all the tricams+full set of nuts+offset nuts+offset cams) or whatever is really worth it's weight. As an added bonus, you're doing a service to the weight-weenies who'll climb after you and will pair their rack down based on your beta. Those that want to keep the adventure alive won't bother reading your ticks anyways.