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Beartooth Alpine picks
ryan Smith wrote: I'm not here to defend anyone but rather try to give fair input to the greater community about actual experience with the picks. I paid retail for my products and have no dog in the fight. I would rethink your own question above... One guy posted a picture of a broken pic and has since refused to give any details about how or why it happened, then went on to cast doubts about the quality of the product. The other guy posted a picture of an un-dulled (it's still quite sharp) pic with a good amount of detail about how it was used, where it performed, and how it came out the other side. Christian, if you wanted to have genuine discussion you would have posted details of what went on with the pictures you posted. Instead you just called the picks brittle and left readers wondering what happened. You're not interested in actually discussing things. You make armchair posts sniping at people's products and experiences. You make personal statements when someone says something you disagree with like "You must not have used a Krukonogi in the last 10 years" which displays your own bias but does not contribute to discussion in ANY meaningful way. Even your reply to me... I make a comparison to Kruk 00's and you go off on some tangent about the 0's and 000's. Those weren't the comparison, sir. I've climbed on 0's and climbed on 000's. Neither of which are what I was using for my comparison and not relevant to what I was saying. I used 00's as they are the most commonly used Kruks for ice if you start asking/looking around. JJ, I don't think I've been unfair to you at all. It seems odd that you don't like it when attention is turned at your negativity, but you have no problem calling people out. That's your own problem. You seem to care what Charlie thinks, yet you offered to try to figure out what metal he's using if someone gets you a sample. Also, you could easily buy a pick and test it yourself quietly if you really need to know. That post was about making a show of it. How is that respectful? How does that actually help move things forward? We climbers need all brands showing up and pushing things forward. You seem to only care about protecting a couple brands. The rest you tear down on here or your instagram. I'll stand by what I said... you're biased and don't care about shitting on other brands. |
NateC wrote: I have no dog in the fight either, I asked for the back story behind the broken pick. Im just interested in the picks, as a potential buyer. i always sharpen my pure ice picks to be very thin and tapper more gradually then how they come from the factory. I notice they penetrate ice much better like this but obviously i loose durability. Im very interested in the beartooth picks because it seems like i may get some added durability and the thinner sharper profile that i like. seems like people are saying the advantage of these picks is that they have a less steep angle so the beak hits first and they are extremely sharp. But then because of this they bird beal very easily and after you file that off they are less sharp and now they dont bird beak anymore? So… the advantage of the pick is lost? They are better because they are so sharp, but youll just bird beak them right away, but don't worry about that, you just file it off and now its durable? Do you still retain much penetration advantage? However, i have now personally see a few of them bird beak badly, or in another case a saw a set that were basically just dull nubs that climbed worse then stock picks (obviously the guy may have just been beating them up and not sharpening). And now there are pictures here of a chipped one that doesn’t look like it could be sharpened…so that $100 gone… anyway, the picks seem really cool, but the durability claims are all over the place, some people say they are practically indestructible and some people say they are the most fragile picks they have ever used. People’s experience with durability of stock picks seems very consistent and i know what I'm getting. It’s concerning as a buyer to hear such wildly different claims and also not know the material of the $200 product I'm purchasing. However i understand there could be legitimate concerns of a competitor stealing the idea? all you guys climb way harder and way more then me, im genuinely asking these questions. I hope you have a fast recovery!! Sorry to hear about your accident. |
ryan Smith wrote: I think your questions are really legitimate. It does seem to be that there's stories on both sides of the picks so far. I think the situation is tricky with the Beartooth Picks because many of us had a "standard comparison" in our minds. That comparison was against the hard steel that Kruk and Steinle use. This is why I said that I don't think comparison is fair to any of these picks, but human brains tend to work on comparison so it does need to be made in some way. I cannot speak for the company, but I get the feeling that they were genuinely trying to make the Master Scratcher a mixed pick that is better at climbing ice than a Pur'Ice and can handle mixed climbing without snapping in the mountains. I believe that they wanted excellent durability but weren't going to sacrifice performance to get that durability (something Steinle has told me directly he prefers: durability > performance). If I'm correct about that then they have done well, BUT there are caveats just like with every product... - You will have to adjust your swing. This is a good thing. They are super efficient picks that allow really good sticks with minimal energy and ice displacement. However, if you don't adjust you'll likely ruin them the same as you would any other pick. They are crazy thin and there's no way around the physical realities that thin picks cannot be perfectly bulletproof. I honestly think that 90% of the people who will buy these picks will be best served with the Master Scratcher. The Ice Hawk likely is for the climber who is really really delicate with their technique and climbing really out there pure ice. -They will bird beak at some point, usually the first time you punch through thin ice and contact rock. It's not catastrophic. My experience, and the experience of several of my partners, was that they seen to get a bit more durable after they beak the first time. A lot of people have seemed alarmed by this. I was surprised because I've beaked every brand I've climbed on (BD, Steinle, Kruk many times, every Petzl pick I've ever used, Camp, and Beartooth). If one don't adjust one's swing, and keep trying to smash one's way up stuff, one would probably ruin a Beartooth pick quickly. Just as quick as you would a Krukonogi or other brand if you keep whackin' rocks. They aren't unique to this behavior. This stuff is why I decided to revive this thread. I wanted to share some actual experience and try to explain the nuances to the gear that's available. I know other people don't want to just spend their money blindly. I think companies trying to put out better products is better for all of us. Sometimes people get it wrong and sometimes they get it right. Sometimes it's a step forward but not a leap. We as consumers can applaud a company and support them while still letting them know what we would like to see improve. |
NateC wrote: How can I be accused of refusing that which was not asked of me? The only person that asked this was Charlie, but it was to email him directly, which I have no interest or stake in doing. I didn’t buy or use the picks, it’s not my obligation to get in touch with him in that way. My friend knows he can reach out to him if he decides to, but that’s his prerogative and not mine.
Okay, so are you now asking me a question? You proceed at this point to then accuse me of wrong doings but you’re unfortunately quite misguided. You could’ve just asked instead of assuming the worst of my intentions, but this has been pretty on par with your accusations of me. Regardless, I’ll play along: as far as I know the picks were used on no more than one to a couple of pitches of thinner ice and I’m sure he hit some rock with it. It was a pretty clean break which is not unlike something brittle… everyone’s welcome to form their own observations about this mystery metal’s behavior as am I. You're not interested in actually discussing things. You make armchair posts sniping at people's products and experiences. You make personal statements when someone says something you disagree with Oh, the irony! Prove to me where I’ve done this and I’ll gladly apologize. like "You must not have used a Krukonogi in the last 10 years" which displays your own bias but does not contribute to discussion in ANY meaningful way. I don’t want to keep repeating myself on this matter, and choose not to continually address the same point that keeps resurfacing ad nauseam. I already discussed this on the previous post and elsewhere here that the hardness of Kruk picks has since been modified. They can still break as can any pick, but they are far less likely to since they have redeveloped the picks in recent years based off the previous feedback. Even your reply to me... I make a comparison to Kruk 00's and you go off on some tangent about the 0's and 000's. Those weren't the comparison, sir. I've climbed on 0's and climbed on 000's. Neither of which are what I was using for my comparison and not relevant to what I was saying. I used 00's as they are the most commonly used Kruks for ice if you start asking/looking around. I really don’t know where to start with this one and sorry it was unclear to you…but I wrote about “0/00/000’s” being in the same category of “pure ice” picks. Since you have experience with all of these models apparently, you should know they are all of similar designs, typically “for ice only” as etched on a few of the model, with slight differences, especially depending on the tools (not all tools have each design available, etc) primarily ranging from ~3.2, 3.1, and 2.8mm at the taper. I’m sorry this was confusing, it wasn’t meant to be. The point I was trying to actually discuss with you is absolutely still relevant to PN00. Ultimately, I’d appreciate if kept your ill thoughts about me to yourself I’ve never communicated with you in a similar manner. I’m quite done with this if it appeases you. |
NateC wrote: Yeah! And thanks for the response, lots of good insight. Durability aside, how do you feel the Master Scratchers compare to the new BD ice picks? You have been climbing on hydras right? Im curious how they compare, the new BD ice pick tapers to 2.5mm as well, but seems like it has a bit steeper/more aggressive angle. Any opinion on how the two compare, strictly in terms of performance on ice? |
ryan Smith wrote: The stock Hydra picks are good, I’m not knocking them. BD went a little bit steep on the angles on all of the Hydra picks for my preferences. I think that the Master Scratcher gets sticks easier, is on par as far as removing from a placement, and is more durable. The stock Hydra picks are slightly more durable than Pur’Ice picks but not a ton. I blew through a set of stock Hydra picks last year with far less rock strikes than my Beartooth picks took on Bird Brain To answer directly, I think the Master Scratcher is better of ice performance because it takes less energy to get a good stick than the stock Hydra pick. That’s likely due to the angle differences. |
NateC wrote: JJ is an extremely nice guy whose passion is unrivaled. Sometimes passionate people focus so much on the details of their interest that it can make others feel off-put. |
NateC wrote: What weight combo were you using with the stock picks? Any weight with the Master scrachers? think there is anything to my theory about the picks being a little less secure, particularly with a more outward pull in second position? Seems like they would be inherently less secure due to the more open angle and lack of real teeth for the first few inches of the bottom. I'm very interested in trying the Ice Hawks, but i do wonder if all the angle changes and features that make them place so easy may make them less secure. interesting no other manufacturers choose to open up the pick angle that much. |
ryan Smith wrote: Yes, just looking at them (without having used these particular picks, but experienced using picks with such features), I’d observe they wouldn’t be ideal to use in this manner. There are benefits to a design like this as mentioned, but security in an outward pull, especially in 2nd, wouldn’t be one of them. |
ryan Smith wrote: No head weights. Didn’t need them between the picks and the early season ice. My experience was that they were as secure as the stock picks. I actually complained to Charlie initially that I felt they were too difficult to remove. He gave some suggestions and it helped. I mentioned the need to change how I removed in my earlier post. I rarely use the second position on ice, unless switching hands. No matter the tool or pick. I think as a guideline it’s bad practice due to the higher likelihood of popping a pick out. The only time I’ve been party to someone falling on ice came from him popping a pick in the second position. |
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Thanks! appreciate all the good input in here! And, Agreed I avoid the second position whenever possible and try to avoid moving up when gripping the second position like the plague. I caught a ~40ft lead fall from someone whos tool blew as soon as they matched to second position. Guy had been climbing ice at a high level for decades, his first fall. |
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I think I have enough mileage on my master scratchers to comment now. tl;dr: I think I like them most of the time, but they’re probably a specialist tool. I’m running the MS with hammers on dark machines. I’ve used them dry tooling on granite, in hyalite, and in the Canadian Rockies. I’m not very good. As I commented to the beartooth folks at the ice fest, I had a hard time ever feeling like I was getting good sticks. I’d swing, the feedback would tell me “nah, try again” and then I’d go to remove it and it was, in fact, a good stick. Beartooth believed this was a condition of any different pick, and while I’ve not used a ton, it didn’t seem that way to me. However, one of the days in Canada was 0F and suddenly the “good stick” vibration feedback was back. I don’t know enough about why all of it happens, but I don’t love the uncertainty of feel in softer ice. However, I do love how cleanly they drive even in cold, brittle ice. Part of me wonders if that feel is contributing to some folks overdriving their tools. I felt pretty confident with fine edges and other scratchy type stuff while casually cragging. I saw almost no wear after cragging on granite, had a tiny bit of bird beaking due to user error on thin ice. They clean up nicely and easily with a good file and I didn’t need to touch them this entire trip. I really like the “stein” spikes which are probably not great for actual pulls, but are perfect for caning on low angle gully transitions. So I think in general these are what they say they are—an awesome pick for alpine, wandering, mixed adventure. I probably don’t actually do anything hard enough to really take advantage of what makes them great. |
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Some thoughts- -To everyone so fixated on knowing what the metal is, why do you care? Aside from JJ, would any of us know the difference if Charlie said “xyz” vs “abc”? The performance is what 99% of us will make our decision on, so focusing on this just feels like an easy target to pick on. -Take a day and go TOP ROPING. These picks are different. You can decide if you like it or not. But not being on a committing lead your first use would allow you to figure out your swing and see what placements hold and what don’t, and be less likely to overdrive them and beak them instantly. I did the opposite of this and climbed Moratorium (thin rn) my second day on them. I overswung and beaked one. That being said, they still climbed PHENOMENALLY and far better than a stock pick WHILE beaked. They felt incredibly secure in inch thick ice. The open angle is noticeable and as mentioned seems almost more important than how sharp the tip of your pick is. I have now filed the beak off and as said, they are ready to go. -If you are still here in this thread you are passionate about a niche activity. We now have someone who is clearly trying hard to produce an even more niche product we do not currently have access to. If everyone just shits on these small companies (see the G7 thread) who don’t have it 100% perfect yet why would the next guy have any interest in starting one? If you feel unsatisfied with a product maybe try offering constructive feedback opposed to bashing. Not every single day out needs a MP thread. I’m stoked on my new picks and I think most new folks will be too. If you’re not, there are plenty of other options out there for you. How about we try to help make progress instead of being petty on Internet forums |
Doug Hutchinson wrote: What has been the highest quality or your favorite out of all those picks? |
Pat Marrinan wrote: I'm a machinist/toolmaker, and I am very interested in how different alloys operate in extreme conditions! Especially with how cold temperatures can affect the crystal structure of steel alloys (like cryogenic hardening and tempering). Finding out how climbing gear manufacturers (or anybody else) make their stuff is like gold to me, I can't get enough of it. |
Mitchell McAuslan wrote: My current favorite is the Master Scratcher. It is probably not the best for any one metric, but its overall combination of performance and features makes it my go to this season. Beartooth created what I always wanted - a mixed pick that climbs ice really well. I haven't felt the need to switch picks for each objective which is somewhat liberating. Nor have I felt the need to purchase the Ice Hawkes because the Scratchers climb ice so well (and I already own the PXSOOs). Beartooth makes sweet picks but all the talk about them being really different and having to adapt one's swing, don't overdrive, etc., is a little lost on me, maybe because the angle is the same as the X-Dream stock picks, but there was no learning curve or technique adaptation for me. Where they are a little different/better than the other picks in my quiver are: 1) they are easier to remove. I don't know if this is because of the top bevel or the angle of the tip, but I have never gotten one stuck yet; 2) I like the large top and bottom Mohawks. The top is great for for upside down piolet cane position and the bottom one improves the rattly feeling in picked out buckets. Many of my pure ice picks don't have a top Mohawk. One downside is these picks rust more than any I own so, although I realize the rust is mostly cosmetic, I want to file them more. The question about "highest quality" nudges me, against my better judgement, to wade into the durability discussion. Ranking the picks I pictured from least to most durable, it would go: Kruk PXSOO<Camp (mixte or ice)<Master Scratcher<Howie<Kuznia (dont the know model) and Kruk PXS(A) -tie?<Kruk dry Sport-Stienle would also probably rank among the most durable based on my limited experience with them. Durability is only part of the equation and I am more than satisfied with the durability of the Master Scratchers. All the picks I listed as more durable than Howie picks, penetrate ice poorly, displace too much ice, and are too hard to file. So there is such a thing as too durable IMO. I have no idea where the Venn Diagram of "durable" and "long lasting" and "quality" overlaps, but to me durability correlates with how often I feel the need to touch up the picks, and I do it frequently with the Master Scratchers. And, I did experience the bird beaking thing in both picks the first day I used them. I bring up my take of their durability just as another data point, but it doesn't diminish my fondness of these picks. Yet, as I type this I am bracing for some of Beartooth's vociferous surrogates to 'splain to me that I am swinging the picks wrong or filing incorrectly. So my critical feedback is to not change a thing about the picks (except maybe a coating change or alloy tweak to reduce rusting), but have the fanboys chill out a little on everyone who doesn't think that these picks are the greatest revolution in ice gear since reverse curve picks and curved shafts. I am already planning on buying a second pair of Scratchers, I am stoke to see what Beartooth makes next, and will be probably be the first in line to purchase crampon front points. |
Doug Hutchinson wrote: Is this an X-Dream thing? Am I just a doofus? I use the stock Grivel forged "Ice Vario" picks for everything with both of my tools (Tech Machine and North Machine) and they seem fine for everything from snow climbing to M7, and they easily last more than a full season. Am I missing something? Would I magically climb WI6 and M10 if I bought $100 picks? |
Kyle Tarry wrote: Probably not "magically." The Ice Vario picks are pretty thick. You might find something like this more confidence inspiring and less pumpy due to getting sticks easier and displacing less ice. Grivel Ice Vario picks are among the most durable out there, so you probably wouldn't see a durability increase. It probably also depends a good deal on where you're climbing too and how talented you are. All the technology in the world won't close the gap that still exists between me and Alex Lowe, but it can make me a little better than I was and give me confidence to get on something I didn't consider before. I got on the search for better picks a couple years ago because of climbing on Petzl picks that don't last and are $65 a pop. The extra money for better picks (Kruk PNS00's) was a bet I placed one time and I realized that I liked climbing on them a lot better. They lasted longer, they got sticks as easy as Pur'Ice and they removed a lot easier. The problem then became that my climbing was getting more and more into mixed and pur'ice and the kruks I was using weren't meant for that terrain. So I had to make compromises somehow. The Master Scratcher came out and I was really happy to have a mixed pick that climbed ice as well as my ice picks. Like Doug said, I didn't have to switch picks around and these did it all pretty dang well. I'm very admittedly a gear nerd. I've helped with product development for a bunch of different brands and products over the years. So when someone puts out something new that may be a step forward, I'm into checking it out and seeing what's up. |
 I have tried different pick angles on the Ice Hawks but inevitably end up with a beaked pick. Love the performance when I first get out, but by the end of the day climbing I am left umderwhelmed. Today was thick water ice, it might me that I was to excited and broke them out early season and messed up the geometry from the start. I sharpen in the same fashion as I have the camp picks, so maybe I am doing it wrong. I will say that the bottom teeth don't seem to bite into the hard ice as well as the stock picks, could be that the ice hawk is thinner and just has less surface area. I might be switching back to camp picks for the time being and possibly buying a set of master scratchers later on to give them a try since that seems to be what every one is happy with. Anyone else running Ice hawks on X-dreams, how have yours held up? |
