Beartooth Alpine picks

Spopepro O.wrote:

Dude how hard are you driving your tools? I can’t think of a time I’ve buried picks to the tool head on any pick (in anything hard enough to require “cleaning”). 

Do you climb anything other than virgin, less-than-vertical, flow ice?  I find it hard to believe that any experienced ice climber can sincerely state "I can’t think of a time I’ve buried picks to the tool head on any pick (in anything hard enough to require “cleaning”)".  

There is a good reason that Petzl, BD, Camp, and Howey all continue the top bevel of their ice picks all the way to the head of the tool. I have also never had a mixed pick that I felt wasn't improved by continuing the top bevel all the way to the head.  

Karl Henizewrote:

Do you climb anything other than virgin, less-than-vertical, flow ice?  I find it hard to believe that any experienced ice climber can sincerely state "I can’t think of a time I’ve buried picks to the tool head on any pick (in anything hard enough to require “cleaning”)".  

There is a good reason that Petzl, BD, Camp, and Howey all continue the top bevel of their ice picks all the way to the head of the tool. I have also never had a mixed pick that I felt wasn't improved by continuing the top bevel all the way to the head.  

The solution is climb like squirrel not like bull!

I'm with Christian and Karl on this one.  It sounds like some of us are climbing on very different ice than others.  Several times, I've had a tool get good and jammed in a naturally existing pocket after placing the pick in it (not swinging at all).

Doug Hutchinsonwrote:

 After 12-15 days on Beartooths, they are toast. 

dude how hard are YOU swinging your picks Jesus!

Also becoming more and more convinced people in this thread don’t know how to file. My goodness. I have smashed mine into rocks and still have the original angle and nowhere near even considering taking a tooth off. 30+ days on them 

Doug Hutchinsonwrote:

Yeah the Xdream stock picks are too soft, but my favorite aftermarket picks, Krukonogi PX0 and 00, don't have hammers so I was switching picks a bunch and that got me excited for Master Scratchers. I thought I could have a pick that climbed ice almost as good and have a hammer.

I haven't used the Camp stock picks in years but it doesn't seem that the Beartooths are much more durable, probably as equally (not) "long lasting." After 12-15 days on Beartooths, they are toast. They blunt so quickly hitting any rock, even with minimal filing to remove the beaks, the tips of my picks are becoming too high for great sticks anymore. I don't care what metal they use, it is way softer than Kruk's, Sport-Steinle's, or Kuznia's steel.

Not my experience at all with Beartooth picks - nor the experience of a dozen others I know who've put a ton of days on them. But let's be realistic: there's no 2mm High Performance Ice pick (or 2.5mm Mixed pick) belt tapered to a .2 razor edge at its point that won't beak if it hits rock. Because of this alleged "durability" issue, Beartooth is coming out with a "non-beaking" 2mm version that I saw smashed into rock repeatedly at Ouray Fest with only minor nicks. Their steel is very strong (but more importantly doesn't snap) and it's waaaay harder than old stock CAMP/Cassin. As for others, Kruks are brittle and snap (I had it happen on lead) they've been trying to back temper to make their steel softer, Steinle's are nearly 4mm and suck climbing anything other than soft ice, Kuznia? Really? It's friggin tool steel from Poland.

Because of their geometry and open angle, Beartooth picks do require significant technique change. I had to stop bashing/deep swinging from elbow and be more aware of hitting rock. It happens though and I removed beaks twice without significant filing/re-shaping. Stop swinging so hard, stop hitting rocks and stop filing back so aggressively. It took me a while to learn these things. Have nearly 50 days on a pair of Ice Hawks and have sharpened them four times. They are the most insane performance ice pick I've ever used in 28 years of ice climbing.  

Got something like 200 pitches on a pair of stock xdream ice picks, finally took the first tooth off this season and still going strong. Just picked up another set, because they do just fine. I'm fully on board with the ice hawks though having seen the difference in effort, displacement, etc. in action plenty. Just holding out for the new version, which should outlast my tools from what I've seen.

Jim Clarkewrote:

 Kuznia? Really? It's friggin tool steel from Poland.

It's highly unlikely they're using tool steel. More likely something with composition similar to american 4340 which is not too dissimilar to Howey's picks. I assume it's mostly the heat treatment that makes kuznia picks softer (on purpose). 

Is Poland known to have steel that is inferior to steel from an unknown origin?

Jedrzej Jablonskiwrote:

It's highly unlikely they're using tool steel. More likely something with composition similar to american 4340 which is not too dissimilar to Howey's picks. I assume it's mostly the heat treatment that makes kuznia picks softer (on purpose). 

Is Poland known to have steel that is inferior to steel from an unknown origin?

I stand corrected. 

One more thumbs up for Beartooth, have both - Master Scratcher and Ice Hawk. Did not even get to Ice Hawk yet, Scratcher seems to handle everything well. Excels on hard ice, which we had plenty in NH this season. As Jim pointed out, technique change is a must. Tiny beak once from accidental swing into the rock, but nothing that small file could not fix in the field.  

Agreed, technique for swinging has to change because of how easily I bury them into soft ice. On the hard brittle stuff we’ve had in the daks this year, they displaced way less ice than my friends climbing on stock cassin picks. I did beak one pick topping out on a thin Catskill climb where there was a very thin layer of ice over rock covered by snow, but I think with how hard I was swinging and how small the point is on the pick, I would have beaked any pick. Overall I’m happy with them and will continue to use them. Huge difference in how they feel when comparing them to stock petzl and camp picks imo. 

Been using the master scratchers on nomics for the past two months, prob around 40 days out or so.  Feel like I've gotten enough use that I can post my impressions.  Overall I love these picks, they climb ice far better than stock pur'ice picks imo, and mixed just as well as my petzl dry picks.  I've beaked them a few times on thin mixed routes but haven't noticed much of a performance decrease after filing off the beaks and doing some minor touch ups.  They definitely seem pretty wear resistant if you're scratching around on rock and being careful on thin stuff.  Only downside, that's been brought up a few times, is they can be pretty hard to clean if you swing into holes in the ice due to the roosters comb, but I'll take it due to the added stein performance.  The caveat is these are my first aftermarket picks so I'm just comparing to stock petzl stuff.

Resurrecting my own thread…

I’ve been climbing with the Beartooth ice hawk picks for 2 seasons now. Overall I really like them. Fantastic swing into all kinds of ice. I lightly beaked them a couple times but it was an easy touch up back to perfectly sharp. I haven’t needed to file them much honestly (though they’re used almost exclusively for ice).

I see one person in this thread filed down the mohawk spikes. Anyone else?

For the first time ever, I got a tool properly stuck this year. That has never happened to me before. Was climbing a picked out route that had some recent snow. Didn’t realize the size of the deep hook I was swinging into. It sunk deep and the mohawk points (plus very short top bevel) made it impossible to get out. I had to put a screw in, hang on it, and chip the tool out with my other tool.

And just in general, I feel like I need to grab near the head of the tool more often while using these picks to release the tool vs my old stock Petzl picks.

Anyone else annoyed by the mohawk? I’m seriously considering filing them off and extending the top bevel, but it seems like it’ll take forever.

Anyway I still love the picks. Just got to be more careful when on something picked out. 

If the mohawk annoys you you are swinging too hard. I have had to 'deal' with the mohawk maybe twice (I climb exclusively on BT's, multiple seasons) and the easy of caning up low angle ice with the mohawk is soooo good. One on the biggest things missing from stock picks IMO. 

Pat Marrinanwrote:

If the mohawk annoys you you are swinging too hard. I have had to 'deal' with the mohawk maybe twice (I climb exclusively on BT's, multiple seasons) and the easy of caning up low angle ice with the mohawk is soooo good. One on the biggest things missing from stock picks IMO. 

It’s not exclusive to swinging too hard, it can happen on funky chandelierd ice, for instance. Featured walls aren’t always a uniform depth. You really don’t need more than a low profile serration for caning purposes.

Yeah. I've had similar issues with the dry tool ridges getting hung up in chandeliers and featured ice. IMO the master scratcher is far superior to the ice hawk. If there's any rock at all within a mile of the hawk it's likely to find it. 

I don’t have Beartooth picks.  However, I have extended the top bevel to the head (or pick weight / stopper) on all my ice and mixed picks, and I have no regrets.

If you don’t want to grind, you could use the cut out to rig a stopper.

Thanks all. I might put on an audiobook and just get after it with a file.