Beartooth Alpine picks

> I would be interested to know what this mystery material is and how/if its treated.

I can find out what the mystery material is, if someone sends me a sample. 

FWIW: To my understanding Beartooth is in the process of making some instructional and comparative videos that will cover the bird beak issue. It primarily stems from the geometry/more open angle of the pick design and initial factory sharpness. Most stock picks hit with the nose of the pick first whereas Beartooth's hit the ice (and thus rock) with the very point of the pick. The factory tune or initial sharpening and polishing makes the tip of the pic extremely sharp and thin to start. Over time with some wear and tuning as well as swinging technique and awareness, I have hit rock and not had nearly as dramatic a bird beak issue. I have also shaped the tips a bit differently. You definitely don't want to charge out on early season ice with their ice specific pick (Ice Hawk 2mm) especially if your a basher! Wait for fat mid-season ice

I feel compelled to chime in at this point as someone who has been testing these picks for close to a year now and works in the shop with Paul & Charlie.
As Jim said, these picks ship to you insanely sharp. And since the steepness angle is less aggressive the impact on rock is more concentrated onto the tip vs stock picks hitting rock (and ice) on the nose. I have found that once the inevitable initial bird beak is filed off, durability in the tip going forward is much improved. The picks are longer to accommodate for this and give them a longer lifespan. Also, once the tip is fucked up, it still climbs ice better than a blunted stock pick… by far.
I’m not too sure where people started getting the idea that these things (Master Scratcher especially) were indestructible. Any pick that can climb ice half decently will not be indestructible. The goal all along was to make a pick that climbs ice better than the “pure ice” picks out there but can also withstand the demands of mixed climbing. We spent tons of time torquing the crap out of these and they’ve put up a handful of cutting edge first ascents in Alaska and Pakistan and our athletes report much higher durability (and less need to file) on these big routes.
Anyways I appreciate everyone’s input. Ultimately when you’re handed the keys to a race car you have to learn to be a bit more sensitive with the pedals. Same thing here. Lighten your swing. Try scratching or tapping on thin ice. You can’t climb on these like stock picks if you want to use them to their fullest potential. You won’t need pick weights once you figure this out. I rarely find myself fully swinging anymore. These things are weapons and we all genuinely believe they’re head and shoulders above the competition. We wouldn’t be doing this if we didn’t believe in that. You just have to learn to treat them as such.
~more info (videos and such) coming soon~

Have people never "beaked" a krukonogi 00 or any other pick before?  I had a Kruk 00 develop a beak on my Xdreams last season without ever touching rock. I've also beaked a Kruk PNS 00 after hitting an air pocket and lightly hitting rock on the other side. I've definitely beaked Pur'Ice's as well. 

I've always assumed that this is part of the lifespan of a pick. For me it's how usable the pick is after it gets beaked that matters. 

Jack Toff wrote: I’m not too sure where people started getting the idea that these things (Master Scratcher especially) were indestructible. 

Nate C: Apparently they have found a steel supplier that has given them access to a proprietary steel with very specific hardness characteristics that make it ideal for the repeated impact of ice climbing. The steel won't break, but maintains sharpness and durability inline with the best picks available.

NateC wrote:

Have people never "beaked" a krukonogi 00 or any other pick before?  I had a Kruk 00 develop a beak on my Xdreams last season without ever touching rock. I've also beaked a Kruk PNS 00 after hitting an air pocket and lightly hitting rock on the other side. I've definitely beaked Pur'Ice's as well. 

Jim Clarke: Far superior picks to Howey, Kruk, Steinle etc.

Charlie: Better performance and durability. Part of that's metal choice, part of that's design choices and changes.

They won’t cleanly snap like Kruk 

Jack Toff wrote:

I feel compelled to chime in at this point as someone who has been testing these picks for close to a year now and works in the shop with Paul & Charlie.
As Jim said, these picks ship to you insanely sharp. And since the steepness angle is less aggressive the impact on rock is more concentrated onto the tip vs stock picks hitting rock (and ice) on the nose. I have found that once the inevitable initial bird beak is filed off, durability in the tip going forward is much improved. The picks are longer to accommodate for this and give them a longer lifespan. Also, once the tip is fucked up, it still climbs ice better than a blunted stock pick… by far.

Longer than what?  The Ice Hawk is no longer than the Pur'Ice, according to the overlay pic in the first post on this thread (if anything, it looks a couple mm shorter).  I have no skin in the game, as I'm not in the market for after-market picks, but I'll always question dubious claims promoting a new product (I blame it on the Carbolic Smoke Ball, I guess).  Can you explain this apparent contradiction between your statement and the photo evidence, A C?

Christian Donkey wrote:

We’re gathering some interesting and more realistic data beyond the initial claims…They also seem oddly brittle based on how my friend’s broke:

Handful of folks have reached out asking me to chime in on this thread, and here's an open offer to email me anytime at info@beartoothalpine.com to chat about gear, answer questions, all that fun stuff! Dm on the insta's too. I answer every single email, inquiry, review, or question that comes in personally. Can't begin to communicate how much I appreciate the incredible amount of community support we have gotten so far; we are insanely busy right now, especially with the Bozeman Fest coming up. That being said, I'll try to check this every couple of days. I usually get back to emails day-of, though. Here's almost 10k words answering everything I can think of lol.

First, @Christian, please shoot me a line directly (email is best to start, not putting my number on here lol) to talk about those picks. Brittle is the last thing our metal is, and I'm very curious how your friend got what's in the photo. Never seen something like that before, and I've swung many 1mm-3mm versions of these picks into rock more than anyone for testing. So I'd love to hear more about all that. We stand behind our products and fix issues that arise, so if something truly failed to perform to our specs we take care of it. Hope to hear from you!

Seems like the biggest topic on here is durability and tip beaking, so I'll mostly touch on that, plus some other things asked on here, other threads, and on the socials in general. Kind of a long master response to common stuff.

1) Simple answer first: durability/longevity is a metric across the entire lifespan of the pick, not just what happens when you hit rock with a perfectly fresh razor sharp pair. Touch the picks up and keep climbing :) Myself, Paul, and our team wouldn't endorse them if we hadn't used an abused these things to the ends of the earth and thought they lasted longer and performed better over the entire lifespan of the pick.

2) Beaking: one of the key design changes was decreasing the overall angle of the pick, making the tip of the pick hit the ice first. It's one of the reasons why our picks perform so well on ice, why they're so secure on thin mixed and scratchy ice, and why they shear less than thicker picks on thin ice.  That beak is extra long brand new and we polish-sharpen these things to razors before coating. That being said, when you hit the razor tip on rock with a fresh pair you are going to bird beak it. File that bird beak off and keep climbing!

3) Impact Resistance and Wear Resistance: No metal on the planet sharpened to that razor and thin outta the box is NOT going to bird beak when you hit rock. The fact that you don't snap a 2mm pick when you smash rock is a testament to the design quality. But, after you BB a fresh pair, you lose some of the extra and thinnest tip section of the beak. They wear slower and slower over the lifespan of the pick. A fundamental difference in our picks is how little they wear via friction. We've all gone out mixed climbing or drytooling for the day, never hit rock, and finished up with rounded picks or front points that need a sharpening to work awesome on ice. I've been destroying a pair of 1.5mm test picks the past few weeks, and even going that thin I can get off a drytooling pitch with a tip still good for ice climbing. This is why some folks are posting, "I went drytooling on my fresh pair of Masters all day and they still look practically new!" and others are saying, "Hey I swung these into rock and bird beaked the tip, what gives?" I've never not messed a new stock pick up when hitting rock. The difference is ours keeps performing well above standard when worn.

4) Performance and Sharpening: one day I'll get around to editing our videos of side-by-side comparisons of performance on ice with stock picks, both brand new, bird-beaked, blunted, and even bent. The short answer is, try using these things dull, bird beaked, whatever. I expect you to find they still out perform stock ice picks (cause we do). Sharp, they do things other picks cannot do. We ship picks with a sharpen for the best ice performance. Once you need to do your first sharpening, how you sharpen them matters. I don't razor sharpen my picks if I think I'm going to hit rock the next day or will be drytooling, etc. I am in the process of filming and editing a master-sharpening guide video/series. It's been heavily requested, I just wish I had 48hrs in the day lol.

6) We actually considered not making them that sharp (especially the Masters) by sharpening them before they go in the vibratory tumbler to clean and soften the edges. These things still perform better when they aren't razors. But, then I'd be getting questions from folks asking why they seem less sharp outta the box, hey this pick seems slightly less sharp than my other pick, my masters seem different than my ice hawk sharpening, etc.. We debated it, and decided just to make every pick the same sharpness, really sharp, out of the box. You're paying for a premium product, and we want you to get the picks in the mail with a professional quality hand polished sharpening you'd get from a knife sharpening service. We take extra time to do that on every pick. 

7) These picks perform better enough on ice that most folks are finding they need to change their swing to either a) not overdrive them to near the head or b) to not hit rock as often. And by change the swing I mean swing less (that's the whole point, make the sport easier with better performing kit). Try not using your shoulder, just pendulum lightly from the elbow and accelerate with a wrist flick. Far less effort. I probably coached ~20 people on this at the Cookeout Ice Festival. It's a truly different performing piece of kit. We've all climbed on the same picks for years and years, we subconsciously know what to expect and have developed our individual climbing technique and styles for the kit. Using something that performs differently takes time to learn the nuances, how they balance and hook, when they are secure, how deep you like to drive them, how you like to sharpen them, when you really need to sharpen them, etc. Definitely start by not using pick weights. Turns out you can still mount them despite us purposely removing the mounting holes. One of the first days on prototypes was -20 Fahrenheit. Still didn't use pick weights. Everyone is different, but I recommend trying what we recommend lol. This is coming from a lifetime user of pick weights on Petzl Pure Ice picks, to be clear.

8) Speaking of premium product and a couple comments about price... We're a small company making premium products at smaller volume than the big boys, and we're doing it entirely in the United States. Why do you think BD shipped their manufacturing overseas? Cost. Some, many, or most products made by bigger companies (depends on which ones, this is very general) are not made by them. The manufacturing is outsourced. Every single thing we do costs more. From cutting to labor to better materials to % of overhead cost in each product (less volume). Every single pick we've sold has been made by hand by Paul or I, and we invested a lot to get this thing running. We will never, ever be able to compete on price against the big boys, ESPECIALLY pro-deal haha. But, then again, there's no comparison in performance quality either.

9) NEW GEAR UPDATE: The next products we release will be a new piton or two, Ice Hawks and Masters for BD's old fleet of tools (Viper, Cobra, Fuel, Reactor) and front points for the major boys (Dart, Stinger, Blade Runner, and Grivel G22/20). We also might release a thicker pick with major durability across the board at the sacrifice of performance being around a stock pick. Like a projecting/beater pick. Across all of these, we are in some stage of the design process from modeling to testing them in the field to doing final tweaks. But, we do not release anything until a) Paul and I think its the best b) we've beaten and tested the hell out of it and are certain no catastrophic failures will occur under harsh mountain abuse (no snapping) and c) our entire team and crew of testers agrees that the kit is their favorite. Sometimes we nail this first try, sometimes not. I'm always hesitant to give anything firm, because we do not rush this process. But now you know what's for sure coming next. I fully expect some of this kit to come out this season. Email or Insta DM with specific questions.

10) You can sharpen the picks with a normal bastard file. $10 files suck for everything because they are slow, wear out fast, and do not give as good as a grind. Mid-grade files in the $20-30 range are worth every penny for everything you sharpen, not just our picks. Having 2 grits, coarse and fine, is best if you want the best sharpening for ice. Again, sharpening video sometime this month.

OK THAT WAS A LOT. Much love to you all and this community; none of this is possible without your support! None of this is "explaining away" something you might like or dislike, simply trying to write a master answer list to the most common things I'm seeing here or getting on the socials/emails.

I think if you give the picks a chance, feel how much better they perform, see how well they perform over their whole lifespan, and find out just how long that well-performing lifespan really is, you will both think they are worth the cost from a longevity standpoint and won't ever want to go back to another pick from a performance standpoint. But maybe not :) And if not, we really do take feedback seriously. I want to hear complaints, I want you to email me with thoughts, and I want you to share the stoke of what you love! Beartooth is just getting started, and every piece of feedback is considered as we design more gear and consider updates to gear that we have already released.

- Charlie

Grant Watson wrote:

Longer than what?  The Ice Hawk is no longer than the Pur'Ice, according to the overlay pic in the first post on this thread (if anything, it looks a couple mm shorter).  I have no skin in the game, as I'm not in the market for after-market picks, but I'll always question dubious claims promoting a new product (I blame it on the Carbolic Smoke Ball, I guess).  Can you explain this apparent contradiction between your statement and the photo evidence, A C?

I'm assuming he meant the front beak being longer, which has to do with performance longevity of the pick before you start filing teeth, not the total length of the pick :) Love the doubt, though! Everyone should be critical of new products we use and abuse in the mountains. I certainly am!

Christian Donkey wrote:

Jim Clarke: Far superior picks to Howey, Kruk, Steinle etc.

Charlie: Better performance and durability. Part of that's metal choice, part of that's design choices and changes.

So, I’m going to repeat myself and ask again how is Beartooth steel better than Kruk steel?

Getting into metal science and debating x vs y characteristics is a pointless game, and we also don't share all the technical information. Nor do most companies, for that matter. I think we might give away more about design ideas and changes than anyone as it is lol. There aint no big box companies chiming in on MP threads :) We and our testing crew have found our picks have better wear resistance and perform better over the lifespan of the pick. "Better" means makes ice climbing easier and has more secure purchase on mixed terrain. But, it's up to the community to decide if that's true or not! And if the community finds something to improve/change about the picks under the use they are intended for (neither pick is meant to be an M10 drytooling pick, for instance), then we will take that feedback and keep designing and innovating! Like I threw in the really long answer post, we love and want good feedback!

Climb on!

Editing here cause it won't let me post more than 3 replies to the thread lol. 

@JJ "All the Technical Information" is what I was mentioning. 100% send me the info if I'm wrong here (cause I would love to read it!), but I've not seen tech sheets with exact metal alloys, compositions, and details of processes being used. I do know CAMP is sharing some of their stuff (but not all). Glen and I were chatting at the Cookeout Fest, interested to see what they put out! Either way, we don't share all that :) 

> We also don't share all the technical information. Nor does any company.

Krukonogi, Howey, Melontools and CAMP for their comp picks do share what steel they're using. Krukonogi also shares heat treatment details. 

> I've not seen tech sheets with exact metal alloys, compositions, and details of processes being used

Details of how the steel is processed are not commonly shared, but the alloys are. In particular Howey uses 300M steel (as he states on his website), Krukonogi uses russian alloys R500, C17 and 96 (alloy name is usually engraved on the pick) and they're very open about tempering as some of their customers have strong preference on what tempering temperature they want (200 vs 300C) and whether the pick should be heated uniformly or only from the side of the head, melontools uses polish steel 40HMNA, camp uses Armox Advance for comp picks. Compositions and basic properties of those alloys are publicly available.

I think it's perfectly ok for you to not share, but it's not the norm.

EDIT: all that information can be obtained from public domain without talking to owners/employees of those companies.
EDIT2: actually kuzniaszpeju doesn't share their alloy, but given how limited the choice is in Poland I think it's easy to make an educated guess

It's the Ice Pick Secret Formula!

$200 for a set and I can’t know what they’re made out of??

Jedrzej Jablonski wrote:

> I've not seen tech sheets with exact metal alloys, compositions, and details of processes being used

Details of how the steel is processed are not commonly shared, but the alloys are. In particular Howey uses 300M steel (as he states on his website), Krukonogi uses russian alloys R500, C17 and 96 (alloy name is usually engraved on the pick) and they're very open about tempering as some of their customers have strong preference on what tempering temperature they want (200 vs 300C) and whether the pick should be heated uniformly or only from the side of the head, melontools uses polish steel 40HMNA, camp uses Armox Advance for comp picks. Compositions and basic properties of those alloys are publicly available.

I think it's perfectly ok for you to not share, but it's not the norm.

EDIT: all that information can be obtained from public domain without talking to owners/employees of those companies.
EDIT2: actually kuzniaszpeju doesn't share their alloy, but given how limited the choice is in Poland I think it's easy to make an educated guess

Charle never tell J J what steel you use. 

I feel like this thread got quiet because the same two guys who shit on everyone's products, started shitting on these picks. Christian and JJ I really wish you guys would take your circle jerk somewhere else. The agenda you two have is super clear, shit on everyone but Elite Climb Morphos and picks. 

We all get it, and we all see it. 

For my personal experience, prior to getting injured, my Beartooth picks were right there as the best I've ever used. Let's talk about comparisons so that I can give people an idea. 

1. Beartooth Master Scratcher vs. Petzl Pur'ice: The Pur'Ice is a really good pick, it just has no longevity. I typically burn through 3 sets a season (or more) if it's a good winter. I hate the pur'ice for mixed climbing, but it IS a very good ice pick. It sets a high bar. My experience with the Master Scratcher was that I get secure placements with a little less swing energy, the Master Scratcher was harder to remove at first until I changed my technique for removing, and the Master Scratcher stayed sharp much longer and handled hitting rock much better (after the initial birdbeaking that happens.) The Master Scratcher was many many times better than an unmodified Pur'Ice for mixed climbing. 

2. Beartooth Master Scratcher vs. Krukonogi 00's: The Master Scratcher has a more open head angle which allows a better swing for my personal preferences. The Master Scratcher can mixed climb, and personal history with 00's has been that they do not tolerate it well. Kruk steel on the 00's seems harder, takes more work to file, and may in reality stand up to an initial rock strike really well in comparison to the Master Scratcher. The Master Scratcher seems to offer excellent durability after birdbeaking the first time though (more on this later.) The Master Scratcher steel seems softer to file than Kruk, which feels like a good thing because I can use far less pressure and only take off the amount of material I intend to remove. Ultimately, I think this means the pick will last a long time. I only got 21 pitches of ice in this year before getting hurt, but my preference had definitely been swayed to the Beartooth picks after I adjusted my swing and learned how to use them the way they are intended.

I didn't get a chance to climb on my Ice Hawks because it was early season and didn't make sense. My experience with the Master Scratchers was that they REQUIRE some minor changes to the swing, especially if you're coming from something even worse than Pur'Ice picks. If you're using Grivels, Petzl Ice, or older BD picks, you'll have to modify your swing to start from the wrist flick, and only add in elbow if the wrist flick isn't getting you a good stick. Cranking all the way back with a big power swing from the shoulder is almost assured to overdrive the Master Scratcher to the head on anything but the hardest ice. If you drive them to the head, they are a total bitch to remove. They don't need to be driven deep to get really solid, life-affirming sticks. 

Removing them also takes a bit of change in technique. I still cant describe it perfectly, but the hooked tip likes to bite in and stay in. Instead of levering the pick out, the most efficient way seems to be pushing the shaft of the tool up toward the sky and then pulling the pick straight back out of the hole. Once I adjusted my technique this came easy. 

The last climb I did was also where I really began to be sold on the picks as my preference. I climbed Bird Brain Boulevard outside Ouray. The route is in "great" condition this year, which is to say that it is true mixed terrain with some ice, rock, and (for our ascent) snow, on every pitch. None of the ice is truly fat on any of the pitches and I was hitting rock while trying to swing into ice on every pitch. I must have hit rock 50-100 times in total and each time I was sure that I was going to find my relatively new picks mangled. I was profoundly impressed when my picks were in such great shape at the end of the day that I wouldn't even need to sharpen them before the next climb! So yes, I do think that they birdbeak initially but once that happens they seem to harden up a bit and become very wear resistant, provided you tone down your swing and learn to use them in the way that they are designed. 

If you are looking for a high performance pick with better durability than what is offered from the manufacturers then these might be for you. They appear to have made a pick that handles mixed climbing demands while still remaining a top performing ice pick. Comparisons with other brands may not truly be fair because it doesn't appear the intent from Beartooth was to make a better Kruk. The intent seems to be to make a pick that climbs mixed and ice equally well and better than factory, if that was the intent I think they nailed it with the Master Scratcher. 

I was involved in a bad accident on the descent and lost one of my tools. Here's a pic of the remaining tool in the exact condition it finished the climb: 

Nate, I didn't mind your comments before, but this is going too far and I would really wish you didn't do it again. I'm not sure what you misconstrued as shitting on these picks, and I'm not very interested in your reasons, but I don't want Charlie to think it's a valid perspective. 

I have a lot of respect for Charlie's work (as well as anyone's who tries to innovate and push the sport forward). I haven't tried his picks (not because I wouldn't buy them, but because he doesn't make picks for any tools I own and climb with so I wouldn't be able to compare them fairly). 

The only two things I wrote in this thread are:

1. picks may be worth 2x the price even if they don't last 2x longer

2. many other manufacturers provide more transparency about materials used (imo this is helpful both for the users and the manufacturer as it sets expectations well)

Neither are a strong critique. 

NateC wrote:

I feel like this thread got quiet because the same two guys who shit on everyone's products, started shitting on these picks. Christian and JJ I really wish you guys would take your circle jerk somewhere else. The agenda you two have is super clear, shit on everyone but Elite Climb Morphos and picks. 

We all get it, and we all see it. 

For my personal experience, prior to getting injured, my Beartooth picks were right there as the best I've ever used. Let's talk about comparisons so that I can give people an idea. 

1. Beartooth Master Scratcher vs. Petzl Pur'ice: The Pur'Ice is a really good pick, it just has no longevity. I typically burn through 3 sets a season (or more) if it's a good winter. I hate the pur'ice for mixed climbing, but it IS a very good ice pick. It sets a high bar. My experience with the Master Scratcher was that I get secure placements with a little less swing energy, the Master Scratcher was harder to remove at first until I changed my technique for removing, and the Master Scratcher stayed sharp much longer and handled hitting rock much better (after the initial birdbeaking that happens.) The Master Scratcher was many many times better than an unmodified Pur'Ice for mixed climbing. 

2. Beartooth Master Scratcher vs. Krukonogi 00's: The Master Scratcher has a more open head angle which allows a better swing for my personal preferences. The Master Scratcher can mixed climb, and personal history with 00's has been that they do not tolerate it well. Kruk steel on the 00's seems harder, takes more work to file, and may in reality stand up to an initial rock strike really well in comparison to the Master Scratcher. The Master Scratcher seems to offer excellent durability after birdbeaking the first time though (more on this later.) The Master Scratcher steel seems softer to file than Kruk, which feels like a good thing because I can use far less pressure and only take off the amount of material I intend to remove. Ultimately, I think this means the pick will last a long time. I only got 21 pitches of ice in this year before getting hurt, but my preference had definitely been swayed to the Beartooth picks after I adjusted my swing and learned how to use them the way they are intended.

I didn't get a chance to climb on my Ice Hawks because it was early season and didn't make sense. My experience with the Master Scratchers was that they REQUIRE some minor changes to the swing, especially if you're coming from something even worse than Pur'Ice picks. If you're using Grivels, Petzl Ice, or older BD picks, you'll have to modify your swing to start from the wrist flick, and only add in elbow if the wrist flick isn't getting you a good stick. Cranking all the way back with a big power swing from the shoulder is almost assured to overdrive the Master Scratcher to the head on anything but the hardest ice. If you drive them to the head, they are a total bitch to remove. They don't need to be driven deep to get really solid, life-affirming sticks. 

Removing them also takes a bit of change in technique. I still cant describe it perfectly, but the hooked tip likes to bite in and stay in. Instead of levering the pick out, the most efficient way seems to be pushing the shaft of the tool up toward the sky and then pulling the pick straight back out of the hole. Once I adjusted my technique this came easy. 

The last climb I did was also where I really began to be sold on the picks as my preference. I climbed Bird Brain Boulevard outside Ouray. The route is in "great" condition this year, which is to say that it is true mixed terrain with some ice, rock, and (for our ascent) snow, on every pitch. None of the ice is truly fat on any of the pitches and I was hitting rock while trying to swing into ice on every pitch. I must have hit rock 50-100 times in total and each time I was sure that I was going to find my relatively new picks mangled. I was profoundly impressed when my picks were in such great shape at the end of the day that I wouldn't even need to sharpen them before the next climb! So yes, I do think that they birdbeak initially but once that happens they seem to harden up a bit and become very wear resistant, provided you tone down your swing and learn to use them in the way that they are designed. 

If you are looking for a high performance pick with better durability than what is offered from the manufacturers then these might be for you. They appear to have made a pick that handles mixed climbing demands while still remaining a top performing ice pick. Comparisons with other brands may not truly be fair because it doesn't appear the intent from Beartooth was to make a better Kruk. The intent seems to be to make a pick that climbs mixed and ice equally well and better than factory, if that was the intent I think they nailed it with the Master Scratcher. 

I was involved in a bad accident on the descent and lost one of my tools. Here's a pic of the remaining tool in the exact condition it finished the climb: 

And I really wish you would stop making this out to be something personal. It's clear to me that even though you've said I "seem like a good guy" that you're just using that as justification to continually target me or someone I've aligned with on a personal level. I'm interested in having intellectual discussions about ideas presented here, and I'd appreciate if could try harder to focus on such. I'm not going to speak for anyone else, but I get, I see it, and I think this has a lot to say about you more-so than it does me.

The irony is that I've gotten involved in the forum about Beartooth picks because people were shitting on other brands without any data to back up these claims. You even state here: "Comparisons with other brands may not truly be fair because it doesn't appear the intent from Beartooth was to make a better Kruk," yet this exact claim was made (scroll up!). I have a problem with this, and so I've challenged statements that were made, and haven't received very compelling data to back up the claims that were presented about Beartooth. Again, you state here "better durability" but I have now seen these picks (on this forum as well as first hand) wear worse from any Krukonogi (or Steinle) pick I have used in recent years. 

I believe what works well for one person may not apply to everyone, and while Beartooth may believe their product to be better than anything else based on their own use, to state they are better for everyone universally is where this requires scrutiny. If the metric is durability, I am not yet convinced, and time will tell where the consensus lands. As Charlie stated: "folks are about to find out if it's true or not :)" 

For the sake of a healthier discussion and to elaborate on the idea of individual preference, you've provided something I think would be worth analyzing: "vs. Krukonogi 00's: the Master Scratcher has a more open head angle which allows a better swing for my personal preferences." I have firsthand experience with different Kruk 0/00/000's and it's worth noting that there are many different designs and "angles" based on these particular model picks and tool of this same designation. Some have more direct contribution from climbers than others. For example, Stas designed his XDream Kruk picks for his personal preference of the scratching technique, and he even remarks in one of his YoutTube videos how he has tried other combinations, but this particular one suits him best. Assuming you're referring to PN00 (Nomic Kruk picks), I have also tried these picks, and agree with you that they do not swing very well at all. For some reason, these were based off the "angles" of not the Petzl Pur/Ice picks but the Dry pick, and as such I experienced similar results to them as you (although, they do scratch well). On the other hand, I have used other designs of the Kruk 0's that have been designed for a "better swing."

All this to say, there are a lot of different Kruk picks available that you don't seem to be aware of, and what design works for one climber might be to another's detriment. Also worth it to mention, that there are drawbacks to a more "open" pick angle. I have seen many climbers not swing high enough on ice, choke up to second position, and place screws with their tools at chest height (or lower!). I know I was personally guilty of this when I was first learning how to ice climb, but it seems these mechanics are not properly understood even by some who have climbed longer than I have. Try this with a more "open angle" and you will rip the tool out of the ice far more easily when you don't want them to.

To clarify further, hopefully to avoid further misunderstanding, my intentions on any of these forums has been to challenge ideas and have a meaningful discussion. I welcome challenging ideas but it's pathetic and uninteresting to me to bring this to any other level. I'm done engaging with anyone otherwise.

One guy posting a picture of a broken pick is an unfair attack? But another guy posting a picture of an dulled but unbroken pick is a fair defense? Strange.

i would love to know how the pick pictured above was chipped/broken like that?? Im considering buying a few sets of the beartooth picks. I like the idea of a less aggressive angle for pure ice and the thinner pick for better penetration/less displacement. Im concerned about durability given that photo.

Based on the photos looks like it may have happened indoor dry tooling? Seems like it would be difficult to break a pick like that considering your probably not swinging indoors…

As I understand it, the less aggressive angle of the pick and the more “forward” facing beak of the pick is what allows them to penetrate ice better and clean easier.

 Would these qualities also make the picks inherently less secure on ice? Especially when matching on the second position and changing the angle of pull to be slightly more outward then downward?

The more “downward” facing beaks of most stock ice picks almost point back towards you when placed in the ice and offer a-lot of security.

Seems like the easier the pick goes in and out, the less secure it would be, obviously this may be a non issue as the picks im sure are still plenty secure in ice. But, would i be correct in assuming that the beartooth picks would be less secure with and outward pull than most stock picks?