Photos of BEAUTIFUL HARDWARE pt2

Nathan Pwrote:

Thanks for your feedback! I agree that ole US Americans love their horizontal anchors... But most sport climbs internationally are bolted vertical offset - for really good reasons discussed ad nauseum on this forum.  

I have tested this set-up and no amount of twisting or flicking the rope caused it to drop back into the mussy and unclip. I suspect it has to do with the ramshorn pushing the righthand rope so far off to the side that it is difficult to twist it back in. But as Mr Rogers said - a regular steel wiregate would be even less likely to clip back into itself. Two quickdraws is no issue for this anchor, just clip the bolts? 100% load distribution on one modern glue-in is no problem. 

Respectfully, I disagree. Having a masterpoint that ends at a single location means that if that one location wears out, the whole anchor fails. Having an offset anchor allows one wear point to be completely redundant from the other - so if one fails, it is backed up by an unworn, full strength back up! The beauty of this offset anchor as opposed to my previously posted, is redundancy in the wear points! 

I'm not sure this is the thread to discuss all this but a double failure of the wear point is extremely unlikely, to the point of it not being something to worry about.  I've never heard of such an instance on a top anchor,  and we likely never will.  The wear points almost always preference more wear on one side or the other, with a CT/SB mussy I doubt anyone would ever let them get so worn down to the point of failure, at 80% worn through they would still hold 5000lbs each.  You're much more likely to have issues with damaging ropes soon the wear points becoming sharp than having a failure. 

I've installed many vertical anchors with a single wear point,  they're great for multipitches.  I've installed many vertically spaced anchors for sport routes as well,  but I extend the higher bolt with chain to meet the lower bolt. This seems to be a less confusing anchor for people and gives more options for people.  It's hard to justify saving $3 in Stainless chain for a less than ideal setup.  Anywho, it seemed like the anchor was posted for critique, so that's mine.  I wouldn't hesitate or be less than stoked to come to that anchor in the wild,  but people will complain or be confused by it. 

Heliodor Jalbawrote:

versus the same but it got moldy (?):

It looks like the color of cured liquidroc camouflaged with rock dust which is not adhering well

Nathan Pwrote:

Thanks for all the feedback folks! I agree that ramshorns are a rare sighting round these parts of the world and can be a pain in the ass to clip quickly... I was considering putting a practice anchor at the base of the crag - but don't love the idea of more bolts and hardware at a somewhat remote crag. 

I am leaning more towards this style of offset anchor mentioned by Mr. Rogers. I don't have any captive carabiners - but plenty of Mussys with smaller quicklinks!

regardless of the horizontal vs. offset debate, it seems a bit strange to have the component that wears out faster (ramshorn) as the main load bearer and the component that doesn't take any load as the (much) beefier (ie climbtech hook).  while the ramshorn may be a little faster to swap out it'll wear out significantly sooner, especially in environments that are quite abrasive (thinking owens river gorge for example).  so in terms of both, cost and time efficiency (multiple ramshorns), this scenario seems a bit backwards (not that i would advocate a ramshorn in a backup role).

At one crag to address the confusion folks may have with a new to them set up, I put in a practice anchor that is on the trail in before it splits to the 2 main areas so you can train yourself up before being miffed at the anchor.

old5tenwrote:

regardless of the horizontal vs. offset debate, it seems a bit strange to have the component that wears out faster (ramshorn) as the main load bearer and the component that doesn't take any load as the (much) beefier (ie climbtech hook).  while the ramshorn may be a little faster to swap out it'll wear out significantly sooner, especially in environments that are quite abrasive (thinking owens river gorge for example).  so in terms of both, cost and time efficiency (multiple ramshorns), this scenario seems a bit backwards (not that i would advocate a ramshorn in a backup role).

Totally agree that a smaller captive eye stainless carabiner would be better than a mussy in this situation! I just like that the primarily lowering point is the equivalent security as a locking carabiner! 

DrRockso RRGwrote:

I'm not sure this is the thread to discuss all this but a double failure of the wear point is extremely unlikely, to the point of it not being something to worry about.  I've never heard of such an instance on a top anchor,  and we likely never will.  The wear points almost always preference more wear on one side or the other, with a CT/SB mussy I doubt anyone would ever let them get so worn down to the point of failure, at 80% worn through they would still hold 5000lbs each.  You're much more likely to have issues with damaging ropes soon the wear points becoming sharp than having a failure. 

I've installed many vertical anchors with a single wear point,  they're great for multipitches.  I've installed many vertically spaced anchors for sport routes as well,  but I extend the higher bolt with chain to meet the lower bolt. This seems to be a less confusing anchor for people and gives more options for people.  It's hard to justify saving $3 in Stainless chain for a less than ideal setup.  Anywho, it seemed like the anchor was posted for critique, so that's mine.  I wouldn't hesitate or be less than stoked to come to that anchor in the wild,  but people will complain or be confused by it. 

The anchor was certainly posted for critique and I appreciate yours! The trade off to the extra chain (and Quicklink) is mostly visual impact for me. So I think there is a time and a place no doubt!

As far as wear points failing I agree it is exceedingly rare! But I know of one instance where it has happened due to aluminum rap rings being used as the main lower off point. Not really relevant here however! 

Nathan Pwrote:

As far as wear points failing I agree it is exceedingly rare! But I know of one instance where it has happened due to aluminum rap rings being used as the main lower off point. Not really relevant here however! 

Yes, those rolled aluminum/hollow "descending rings" were/are total garbage, it's embarrassing any manufacturer ever sold them. I think we can agree using gear outside of its intended purpose, like using emergency descending rings as permanent lower offs is an entirely different issue.

Pile of old mixed metal bolts, mostly spinners, mostly with glue under the hangers, washer stacks instead of hangers, etc. Ew.

Replaced with glue-ins.

All bolts. Only one guy had some regular gear.

All the rest are photo's of sanitized sterile robotic junk drilled into some rock by robots masqueraded as beautiful which now encompass the majority 

expat exoduswrote:

All bolts. Only one guy had some regular gear.

All the rest are photo's of sanitized sterile robotic junk drilled into some rock by robots masqueraded as beautiful which now encompass the majority 

You sound like a really great guy with a healthy outlook on life. Maybe you have a good therapist to help keep on the sunny side at all times?

Satire aside your comment is dumb and for me your presence in this thread has added nothing and it is not appreciated.

When you get to the point where you think everyone else is the problem it is most certain you who are the problem. Drink about it.

Adding extra chain in case the willfully ignorant won’t learn something new sounds wastefully American.

All the stuff people must learn just to get off the ground but the idea of clipping two bomber vertical anchors is beyond comprehension?

Ackley The Improvedwrote:

Adding extra chain in case the willfully ignorant won’t learn something new sounds wastefully American.

All the stuff people must learn just to get off the ground but the idea of clipping two bomber vertical anchors is beyond comprehension?

We need chain to hold up our giant American asses. Bigger and more is better, Dude.

M Spraguewrote:

We need chain to hold up our giant American asses. Bigger and more is better, Dude.

That would be me.

Ackley The Improvedwrote:

Adding extra chain in case the willfully ignorant won’t learn something new sounds wastefully American.

All the stuff people must learn just to get off the ground but the idea of clipping two bomber vertical anchors is beyond comprehension?

I actually just put in anchor bolts and then hang chain all of the way to the ground so I don’t have to put in lead bolts - folks can just clip in wherever they feel they want a draw. That’s called freedom

Whatever happened to getting to the end of the rope and having to thread a pinch, sling a chickenhead, then fiddle in a stopper for backup? (and get off my lawn.)

Dave Olsenwrote:

Whatever happened to getting to the end of the rope and having to thread a pinch, sling a chickenhead, then fiddle in a stopper for backup? (and get off my lawn.)

Like those opportunities still exist, man. 

It looks like that anchor could pre-date  battery power drills. I wonder what kind of bolt? 

Some simple staggered anchors with varying degrees of cost. In the second photo I am thinking I should have rotated the hanger a bit or placed it on  the left? But I also don’t think it really matters.

What is advantage of the vertically staggered bolts  vs the horizontal orientation? I know horizontal anchors with rings tends to twist the rope quite often but at least they are loaded equally it seems especially with chains below. Seems the vertical setup is only loading one bolt.