This trend is horrible. And needs to stop

Nick Bakerwrote:

New climber routes aren’t rare at all in most places, but given your location I imagine your options are limited AF (I grew up in SA..).   

Then you understand my pain   

almostradwrote:

Not everyone is thinking about repeat ascents when they do an FA.  Sometimes people prioritize their own experience over others that will come after them.  And they have every right to.

While I agree this is true, having the right to do something doesn't mean you should. In wilderness, if a route is unlikely to see repeats? Sure, do whatever. But, in frontcountry, in an area where others will actually climb your routes, if you want your routes to be respected, bolt them well and in the style of the area. Because the FA ethic is so important, when you establish a route, you're setting the bar even though you don't own the rock, we share it.

If you're rap-bolting runouts? GTFO of here with that shit.

Now days it's easy to learn to climb in the gym and get super strong. OP, get on harder routes where it's safe to fall. Climbing <5.10 is much more dangerous than climbing 5.11+. Most 5.6s would require an insane amount of bolts to make them actually safe because of how ledgy they are. So, there will almost always be some sketch factor on easy climbs.

Aunt Pattywrote:

A wise man once said "if it wasnt for the run-outs, slab climbing would be terribly boring"

X).  Love it!! The full quote I have heard is "Slab climbing is boring and scary, and if there are too many bolts, it's just boring"

F r i t zwrote:

Actual question, now that we're all drinking coffee instead of Shiner Bock. Your LCO pays for new routes and is funded by the government?

Shiner Bock…TX reference for this thread? It is better than Lone Star.

rock climbing wrote:

Why shouldn’t government and big businesses pay for it? 

With government money comes government control. Before long you'll be standing in line at the DMV to take your belay test for the privilege of clipping those federally funded bolts ... if you can even secure a permit from rec.gov in the first place ...

@live perched, the true Tex-flex is invoking the beatific name of Blue Bell ice cream.

Ricky Harlinewrote:

This is actually what inspired me to get into route development. I was tired of two bolt 5.8s next to 6 bolt 5.11s that were the same height. 

I think there's a place for runout routes at every grade, but I agree that making the easier grades runout when you wouldn't for harder grades is lame. 

A 5.9 at a crag with a bunch of 12s? Sure, it's the warmup for crushers. An urban crag where the predominant audience is newer climbers? Get outta here with that bullshit. 

Fortunately there's a pretty cool and fun solution to this problem: you can put up new, well protected routes. Everyone says California is climbed out but there's FAs out here for generations to come. 

It would be cool if the FAs saw that what they intended as warmup routes were actually becoming challenging onsights for most people and decided to retrobolt their routes, but it is of critical importance that this isn't done without FA permission. 

Therefore that leaves two potential solutions: talk to the FA (or the core community if the FA is dead or unknown) or just put up new lines. I like the latter. 

Literally what Bobby Hutton did at Emigrant Wall. New FAs in the Sierras, so they're decent temp in the summer, closely bolted for new leaders, doing sport multipitch. It's a gift. We need more of it. Which will also take some pressure off the understandable desire to have sparsely bolted classics sprout new bolts too.

Natalie Blackburnwrote:

Literally what Bobby Hutton did at Emigrant Wall. New FAs in the Sierras, so they're decent temp in the summer, closely bolted for new leaders, doing sport multipitch. It's a gift. We need more of it. Which will also take some pressure off the understandable desire to have sparsely bolted classics sprout new bolts too.

If y'all want some well protected moderates in the Tahoe area, holler at a guy.
Bobby and myself have been hard at work the past few years.

It is my considered opinion that slab climbing involves a technique for falling that is rarely addressed. 

BITD I learned that if you slip on a slab, you turn around and run down and out away from the last piece of protection. This way when the rope (hopefully)comes tight, you turn the fall into a swinging pendulum. Obviously, if the rock is highly featured or has a  ledge, this may not be the best option.

I discovered this on Glacier Point Apron and turned a 60' fall into a quick run and swing and was laughing at the end. Just keep your calm and if you slip or fall, run down and out and you'll be fine. 

F r i t zwrote:

Actual question, now that we're all drinking coffee instead of Shiner Bock. Your LCO pays for new routes and is funded by the government?

I think he's referring to the Friends of Enchanted Rock. It is a non-profit group that supports the park with trail work, fixed anchor replacement etc. 

It seems that most any route at E-Rock can be fairly easily toproped. 

Carry on with your regularly scheduled junk show.

Eric Chabotwrote:

If you're rap-bolting runouts? GTFO of here with that shit.

100% agree. Developing a spicy route top down provides opportunities for route inspection and rehearsal that subsequent ground-up ascents do not have.

I'm all in favor of routes being R/X rated if that's how the FA experienced the route -- mandatory onsight terrain.

Rap-bolted spice is weak sauce. Look at the "Discreet Start" to Black Sun on Castleton at 5.9R. Awesome pitch that makes you earn the protection, but a demoralizing origin story.

 It's like playing Horse with someone and making a shot on a 7-foot hoop and then raising it to regulation for them to shoot. Except if they miss, they break a leg. 

I've taken grief over a well protected 5.10 route with a 5.6 run-out at the top, cry me a river I said. Eventually a nice fellow contacted me to ask if I minded if he added a bolt and permission was given. It just seemed fun to have a little run at the end where it's easy plus I'm a cheap ass that learned on similar routes. 

Dean Rosnauwrote:

When I do a FA, I put in the pro I feel I need to protect myself. Most often, the route itself dictates where I'm going to drill, based on stances. The risks I'm willing to take are my decision based on my comfort zone. If you want to repeat one of my routes, you'll face the runouts, and get a feel of what I experienced on the FA. If my level of risk is higher than yours, and unacceptable to you, don't climb the route. 

One doesn't go into an art museum and add color to the paintings of others.

Meh…The problem with that analysis is that the painter bought the canvas and the paints. He owns them. A climber does not own the rock he climbs on. The painter also created the art on that painting. The climber did not create the rock he climbs on. I know this is not gonna sit well with many on here but like someone else mentioned in this thread, I too find it very odd that someone can go to a rock that’s been there for many many generations, on public land,  put some bolts in it, and then claim that part of the rock for eternity.

And no I will not get a feel of what you experienced on the FA because to you that route is a walk in the park and to me it’s hard and scary.

Remember folks…this debate is about beginner routes. Someone please explain to me why advanced, seasoned climbers feel so strongly about a 5.6??? Where is the spiciness in climbing a runout 5.6 if you can lead a 5.9+ Nevermind the 5.11+ climbers. Makes no sense to me. I can only chalk it up to ego or control.

If you want spicy, there’s plenty of stuff you can do to spice up your climbing. Let the beginners, old folks, climbers with bad knees or ankles, other disabilitie, etc…etc…have their well protected moderates. We want to conquer multi pitch walls too. And we have as much right to it as you do. And we don’t care for spiciness. Why are you trying to dictate what happens on routes that you will never step a foot on? I’m pretty sure none of us care how you bolt your 5.11s.

Ben Gwrote:

What is with this prevailing trend for long runouts on “easy” routes. Some even dozens of feet  before a clip. Especially slabs. I don’t get it.

Easy for who??? The people that can climb much higher grades? Are they the ones that will take a break from climbing 11s and 12s so they can do a 5.6 or 5.7 route? Or 5.4 - 5.5 route?

Which routes are the total newbies supposed to start on and climb repeatedly? Do you think a 5.6 slab is easy for them? In case you’ve been climbing for so long that you forgot what starting out felt like, I’ll tell you…It’s NOT. And I imagine those 5.5/5.6 routes were bolted for them.

Even though I have climbing experience from back in the days, I never did slabs. And when I did my first one it was a 5.6 and I was TERRIFIED. On top rope LOL. I didn’t think any of the footholds will hold and constantly saw my face and knees cheese grated on the crystalline granite. And my girl who was a fairly new climber didn’t even think it was possible to climb it.

I say bolt those routes GENEROUSLY. Let the newbs have something safe to start and practice on. Once you get into the higher grades, do whatever you want to feed your ego (I’ve seen very advanced climbers in very heated debates on why a 5.7 slab should be left dangerously runout). Again… I don’t get it. 

If everything is relative who is to say when one can feed their ego in terms of bolting distances? Your declaration of "higher grades" inevitably excludes someone. Your easy is my hard, and vice versa. At some point someone is feeling excluded or slighted. . .

ddriverwrote:

It seems that most any route at E-Rock can be fairly easily toproped. 

Besides Practice Slab please point out some 5.6-5.7 slab routes that I can TR at E-Rock

And yes Fritz I LOVE Shiner Bock   

Just find a different area to climb in, there are plenty of tightly bolted easy routes at the Red, go to Muir.

Personally I draw that line at 10ft per bolt, others prefer it more spicy. To each his own. 

Ben Gwrote:

If you want spicy, there’s plenty of stuff you can do to spice up your climbing. Let the beginners, old folks, climbers with bad knees or ankles, other disabilitie, etc…etc…have their well protected moderates. We want to conquer multi pitch walls too. And we have as much right to it as you do. And we don’t care for spiciness. Why are you trying to dictate what happens on routes that you will never step a foot on? I’m pretty sure none of us care how you bolt your 5.11s.

You have them, toprope or sport climbing.

Eric Craig wrote:

Run outs are part of traditional rock climbing.

Getting good at chockcraft is also part of traditional rock climbing. (Cams are artificial CHOCKstones too, and hexes ARE nuts)

Management of the risks through climbing skill and mental control is part of traditional rock climbing. 

All of these can be developed by almost anyone. 

Basically Ben, you need to get better. Or you can always play Pickleball. I hear it’s a lot safer 

Ben Gwrote:

I say bolt those routes GENEROUSLY. Let the newbs have something safe to start and practice on. Once you get into the higher grades, do whatever you want to feed your ego (I’ve seen very advanced climbers in very heated debates on why a 5.7 slab should be left dangerously runout).

No

Ben Gwrote:
And yes Fritz I LOVE Shiner Bock   

I mean, they had me at the logo! :-)

Despite my libertarian diatribe upthread, I am legit curious about your LCO being funded by the state, and paying for new routes. Never seen that before. Bolt replacement and anchor upgrades, maybe, but I've always seen developers pay for their own hardware.

Ben, my favorite type of climb is mentally tough, run out 5.7/5.8s. I can climb higher grades but it’s not what bring me the most joy.  Why does your want as a new climber outweigh mine?  You seem to think climbing is all about grade progression (common as a new climber) but many of us climb as much or more for progressing in mental fortitude/adventure etc.  

Keep in mind no one here is arguing against some nice outdoor gym style routes. Personally that’s my goal if I am rap bolting a climb….  But….If we listened to every new climber upset every moderate route isn’t set with new climbers in mind… those new climbers would miss out on the adventure these more mentally challenging provide as they progress.

If your area truly has no beginner bolted climbs that’s a shame and should be rectified if possible, but if you just want everything at your technical level to be brought to your mental one that’s selfish af.

TL:DR: Not everyone is gunning for 5.12.  Low grade/moderate climbs are not just for new climbers.