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This trend is horrible. And needs to stop
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What is with this prevailing trend for long runouts on “easy” routes. Some even dozens of feet before a clip. Especially slabs. I don’t get it. Easy for who??? The people that can climb much higher grades? Are they the ones that will take a break from climbing 11s and 12s so they can do a 5.6 or 5.7 route? Or 5.4 - 5.5 route? Which routes are the total newbies supposed to start on and climb repeatedly? Do you think a 5.6 slab is easy for them? In case you’ve been climbing for so long that you forgot what starting out felt like, I’ll tell you…It’s NOT. And I imagine those 5.5/5.6 routes were bolted for them. Even though I have climbing experience from back in the days, I never did slabs. And when I did my first one it was a 5.6 and I was TERRIFIED. On top rope LOL. I didn’t think any of the footholds will hold and constantly saw my face and knees cheese grated on the crystalline granite. And my girl who was a fairly new climber didn’t even think it was possible to climb it. I say bolt those routes GENEROUSLY. Let the newbs have something safe to start and practice on. Once you get into the higher grades, do whatever you want to feed your ego (I’ve seen very advanced climbers in very heated debates on why a 5.7 slab should be left dangerously runout). Again… I don’t get it. |
Ben Gwrote: so maybe it's not for you? |
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This is actually what inspired me to get into route development. I was tired of two bolt 5.8s next to 6 bolt 5.11s that were the same height. I think there's a place for runout routes at every grade, but I agree that making the easier grades runout when you wouldn't for harder grades is lame. A 5.9 at a crag with a bunch of 12s? Sure, it's the warmup for crushers. An urban crag where the predominant audience is newer climbers? Get outta here with that bullshit. Fortunately there's a pretty cool and fun solution to this problem: you can put up new, well protected routes. Everyone says California is climbed out but there's FAs out here for generations to come. It would be cool if the FAs saw that what they intended as warmup routes were actually becoming challenging onsights for most people and decided to retrobolt their routes, but it is of critical importance that this isn't done without FA permission. Therefore that leaves two potential solutions: talk to the FA (or the core community if the FA is dead or unknown) or just put up new lines. I like the latter. |
PWZwrote: What should I learn on? Or is that the only solution? You want to learn slab so either take the high risk or don’t do it at all. |
Ben Gwrote: toprope. |
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Toughen up Buttercups. Climbing skills or hospital bills. 6-bolts on a 40–foot 5.5 boulder is pathetic. May I suggest a ladder? |
Ben Gwrote: I was really feeling you until this line. The reason you were terrified while TRing 5.6 slab was that the bolts were runout? How many bolts would you like to climb by while on toprope to feel secure climbing slab? I don't think the root of the problem is with the bolting. I think you are hoping more bolts will make friction moves feel like standing/pulling on an edge. Before you shout at me- I am a self proclaimed sport-climbing-sissy who wants a bolt every 18" if projecting. But I don't blame the developers for my lack of lead head. |
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Bro is from San Antonio and has been climbing at E-Rock where run-out slabs abound. James in his later years purposely bolted some slabs for folks like you. But, run-outs are to be found all over the climbing world and not just at single pitch crags. Pick up some slab skills and then venture further from home. You'll be better for it. |
Ben Gwrote: 0/10 To be safe. |
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I've never done a proper slab until a buddy brought me to do my first climb in Yosemite. Not having guidebook/topo I didn't know what I signed up for, and I ended up having to lead a 50+ft runout 5.6 slab pitch. It was quite a religious experience for a gumby and I fell in love with moderate runout slabs ever since. It would have been lame if the slab had a bolt at every body length. I'm not saying everywhere should be run out/tightly bolted, but I think we should appreciate the value of both types of routes. Sometimes routes are bolted on lead and hand drilled. It takes huge amount of time and energy to drill a bolt so they only drill it when it's necessary. But I do agree that rappel bolted routes with big runouts are contrived and somewhat stupid, and they have a place as practice routes for beginners. You can always throw a top rope/mock lead if you think it's bad. There is no shame to top rope. Climbers of every competences do that. |
Stoked Weekend Warriorwrote: Which climb was that? |
Ben Gwrote: 1/10 This must be a troll post. Because I can't believe anyone seriously wants to have this discussion again. As it's been beaten to death in a hundred threads already. |
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Learn to crack climb and you can place your protection as close together as you want. |
Ben Gwrote: A big 5.6 runout on a 5.8 is the way things were done for years. yes part of it was 5.11 climbers were the only ones putting up routes, and they made things spicy due to expense of bolts, desire to keep it challenging, etc. More modern climbs often have a lot more bolts. But in the USA we typically leave things how the FA did them, because otherwise it opens up a can of worms and there would be no consensus on how many bolts you could add. So seek out modern bolted routes. Go to an area that has typically has more bolts. Or put up your own routes. |
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Ben, You will definitely be flamed out on this forum. The trend you mentioned has more or less stopped. Imagine a time when battery powered drills were not abundant. Imagine having to pay for all the hardware with your after tax $s. Imagine onsite lead bolting as the primary way to establishing a climb. All strong motives for bolting where necessary to survive rather than to not get scared. Today new areas and routes tend to skip the first low bolt assuming a stick clip but after that there are few or no runouts. Why not retro bolt…well that has to do with rites of passage, the unpleasant appearance of hundreds of bolts, FAs’ wishes and incels’ with grandiose notions. The advice about visiting other locations and developing a strong lead head is hard to hear after getting spooked 15 feet above a bolt. It is still sound. |
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Solution: switch to traditional protection and place gear whenever you want. Alternatively feel free to find your own “sport” lines and bolt them yourself. Climbing should not a “comfortable” sport in my opinion, no matter how gym culture is shifting popular perceptions. Alternative idea: don’t like runouts on other people’s routes? Stick to top-rope or climbing plastic and clipping bolts in the gym. Personally, I feel that part of the fun of repeating old routes, and particularly old trad routes with bolted slabs is rising to the challenges set by the greats who came before me. |
Live Perchedwrote: Wait did Biden announce a tax break for developers? Can I write off my hardware now? |
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This is not at all a 'new' phenomenon---easy slab routes with no or minimal protection have been around since the early days of climbing ( when they weren't thought of as being easy), long before bolts for climbing were a 'thing' --the Iydwal Slabs in North Wales, for example. As a result such climbs are part of the 'fabric' of climbing. Still, I agree that not all easy/moderate slabs should be bolted to require very long runouts--as said above, a mix of reasonably protected and runout routes seems a reasonable 'compromise'. Also those establishing such routes should give consideration to who the likely future climbers of their routes will be. As an example, the Tuolumne domes do not have an abundance of slab routes below 5.10, especially ones that have possibilities for reasonable ( or any) natural protection. So, in my opinion, it is disappointing that back in the 70s/80s, several of the top climbers of the day---operating at the 5.11/12 level, chose to solo several 5.7-8 slabs---and then 'officially' claim them as first ascents, and therefore, according to the established climbing ethics of the time--and now, 'freezing' them in that unprotected status 'for all time'. I consider this to be very selfish behavior ---and I doubt that those routes are frequently, if ever, climbed---and never by parties operating in that grade range, while they likely would have been popular, and filled a 'need' for for climbs at that level, if they had been reasonably bolted. If these had been crack climbs, or otherwise naturally-protectable, this wouldn't be an issue, but on such 'blank' slabs it makes all the difference. It would have been much better had those climbers 'quietly' soloed the routes for their own satisfaction, but left the 'for the record first ascents' for future parties who would likely have bolted the routes in a manner more appropriate for people climbing at such grades: |
Ben Gwrote: It's not necessarily a modern trend. If the climbing is easier than the rest of the route or there's gear available, I understand not drilling a ton of bolts. Bolts cost both time and money. They're also freaking heavy. Sometimes they must be hand-drilled. Every bolt you clip is a gift from a hard-working developer. There's not many bolts on mellow terrain for the same reason there's very few long bolt multi-pitch routes: it's damn expensive. Not to be rude, Ben, but be grateful for what you have. We climbers are an entitled bunch, but no one owes us anything. If you want more slabs with closely-spaced bolts, you're more than welcome to find and bolt them. Props to you, Ricky. I've wanted to develop in a similar style (granted, I also have some benefit by developing easy, well-protected routes), but I haven't found the time yet. |
phylp phylpwrote: Every generation. Sees it their own way. |
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Don’t retro-bolt the 5.7. Chop the 5.11 next to it down to 3 bolts. |
