CMV: 'Biner Block Single Strand Rappel is the way

Brent Kellywrote:

...ideally on extension and always with a third hand.

CMV = change my view.

Looking to either learn about a more optimal general rappel rig methodology, or disseminate knowledge around a best practice.

This is my standard setup for 98% of rappels, and generally presumes chains or rings with a 12 to 30 mm diameter. The most prominent risk here being weighting the retrieval strand rather than the blocked-load strand -- and this risk is mitigated by the practice of always loading the rappel strand and doublechecking the load security before removing the personal leash from the anchor. The minor risk being the biner causing a snag upon retrieval, but this is a situational concern and low-risk in anything steeper than 80 degrees, in my experience.

Anyone have any better ideas? Constructive criticism?

1) Knot one end of the rope with a double or triple fisherman's fatty stopper knot. Thread the rope through the chains or rings, and immediately secure the threaded end with a clove hitched biner and/or another double/triple fisherman fatty stopper. 

2) Biner block with a fat round stock triple action locker with a clove hitch, either (a) at the midpoint of a doubled-over rope for a one rope rappel, or (b) the end of a single strand for a two-rope or tag line attached. Back up the biner block clove hitch with the flat overhand joining the strands, if using a two-rope/tagline method. 

3) Secure the retrieval strand to your person via a fat, wide 'biner (hms, e.g. petzl william, or just a big basket quickdraw) and some slingage to your belay loop or leg loop. This will prevent the retrieval strand from being blown away in high winds.

4) rig your rappel device, on extension, with a third hand to the load strand. (I usually use a grigri extended on a 60cm dyneema sling, sometimes halved to 30cm)

5) MOST IMPORTANT: weight the load strand and anchor BEFORE disconnecting your anchor leash. confirm you are on the load strand. Double check that the biner block is snug up against the anchor chain/rings (i.e. it isn't caught up in some bullshit and will eventually pop into a snug position and shock load your shit) and unlikely to capsize/roll for whatever bizarre reason.

6) Rap to your next anchor point. If multipitch,clip in on your leash & weight the anchor BEFORE disconnecting from the rappel. Secure the rappel side of the rope to the anchor with plenty of slack, to avoid complicating your partners rappel. 

6a) If using a two rope or doubled single method, while your second is dealing with their rappel logistics, thread the retrieval strand through the anchors. When your entire party is secure at the anchor and you're ready to pull the rope, undo the tail knot on the rap strand, double check "No knots? No knots." on the rap strand, and pull the rope while continuing to feed it through the new anchor point. The previous retrieval strand will become the new rap/load strand, and the old rap/load strand will end up your new retrieval strand. It's great practice to keep count of your rappels and alternate with two different colors or weave patterns, e.g. odd rappels, load the blue rope, even rappels, load the red rope. ALWAYS DOUBLE CHECK LOADS BEFORE REMOVING YOUR ANCHOR LEASH. 

6b) if using a tag line, ensure the tagline is secure to the anchor, pull the rope to the binerblock, secure the rope to the anchor, pull, thread, retie, repeat until back on terra firma.

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I've found this to be "faster" and "safer" (for want of better terminology) than most other methods I've come across. You need to stay sharp and not make dumb mistakes, but generally only just as much as any other rappel method. Been my standard methodology since using it to rap all 20+ pitches of Timewave Zero.

Thoughts?

Will try to update with photos for clarity when time and energy allows.

Would you mind if our party raps on through while your faffing with all your knots and blocks. We don’t want to be late for diner.

Btw, a double fisherman’s is a bend used to secure two ropes together. I think you meant something else. 

Greg Dwrote:

Would you mind if our party raps on through while your faffing with all you knots and blocks. We don’t want to be late for diner.

Btw, a double fisherman’s is a bend used to secure two ropes together. I think you meant something else. 

Word.

People, just tie two ropes together (if you even need two for length) and rap like a normal person with a two-sided device of your choice. No shenanigans.

Y’all talking about how much longer it must take must not be tying friction hitches. I guarantee I can set up a single blocked rap quite a bit quicker than an extended backed up dual rap. And if you’re not extending or backing up a tube that’s just foolish

of course a GJul or AlpUp would be by far the quickest hence why I do that now

It seems to me that a biner block is more likely to get stuck during the pull than the EDK.  Seriously, we all changed to EDK from various other knots so the knot we pulled would have a smaller profile and now you want me to use a biner block which is much larger than any of the old knots.   

I think biner block raps make sense when climbing with a grigri or other single stand device and rarely makes sense for devices that support two strands.  Although consideration to simul rapping make sense.  I am not sure which I would choose between the two.  

Since I usually have a alpine up,  I rap double stranded.  

Rather than a biner block do an overhand knot block but clip a locker to the bite, then clip it back into the knot. This maintains the smooth flat profile of the overhand while adding the bulk of the carabiner to keep it from sliding through rings etc.

That said, in a party of two, the atc block mentioned before I think is far superior.

i have used the biner block a handful of times for various reasons.  its' ~ok, but i think it has a lot more problems and is definitely less efficient than the typical rap method on multiple rappels.  with the usual rap method you are threading the pull strand through the next anchor as you pull from previous, which kills 2 birds with 1 stone.  with the biner block you either have to unrig it from the biner, thread, re-rig to the biner.  (either that or find the far end of the rap strand, pull it up, thread it).  it is definitely much slower than using the typical rap method.

i would also pretty much never use the biner block at red rocks, sierra granite that is really featured, etc.  too much chance of it getting hung up.

Brent Kellywrote:

It sounds like you might be interpreting my post to say that I use *both* a grigri *and* a third hand (cord-prussik or autoblock or somesuch)? If that's the case -- I, personally, do not. I just use a grigri on rappel, most of the time. I agree that simply letting go of the device in a panic and letting the device engage it's fail-safe camming is the ideal action to take. Definitely scary to imagine someone panic gripping both the grigri lever and their supplemental third-hand.

Yes, it created confusion because the primary advantage of a single strand rappel is the ability to use a GriGri. For anyone else, rapping on a single strand just makes it a faster, often more dangerous rap. I typically use a Mammut Smart Alpine on multi pitch. I've rapped a single real rope and a tag line on it and the reduction in friction even with the tag line threaded into one side is pretty dramatic.

When I'm with someone who wants to rap on a grigri we've always just blocked the ropes by putting a traditional device on first, above the grigri, and having the grigri user go down first on a single strand. 

Sheesh, a second ATC weighs 2 oz,  Just bring it along for rappelling and forget all the faffing.

rgoldwrote:

Sheesh, a second ATC weighs 2 oz,  Just bring it along for rappelling and forget all the faffing.

What is a second atc going to do?

J Ewrote:

What is a second atc going to do?

As I understood it, the issue was setting up for one of the party to rap with a Grigri, which requires a single anchored strand.  For an extra 2 oz, all the extra steps, ones that come with an added chance of stuck ropes and abraded sheaths, are avoided. Looking back, the OP doesn't say why they want to rap on one strand, the Grigri rapping post came later.

Slightly OT but with all the contortions people are going through so to be able to rap with a GriGri while sharing an ATC or some other nonsense I hope you all have a way to contact SAR cause when you all drop one or both devices yer gonna need a rescue. I now return you to your evening contortions.

Allen Sandersonwrote:

Slightly OT but with all the contortions people are going through so to be able to rap with a GriGri while sharing an ATC or some other nonsense I hope you all have a way to contact SAR cause when you all drop one or both devices yer gonna need a rescue. I now return you to your evening contortions.

On topic! People will sacrifice anything to use their precious Gri Gri! 

I think OP was arguing that a single strand rap is superior regardless of devices available 

The actual action of rappelling is safer and simpler and just generally more enjoyable  using a mechanical descender (grigri, matik, lifeguard, and dozens upon dozens more). Especially safer if that device has an antipanic function. There's a reason tubers and 8s aren't the industry standard in rope access work

Is a single knot and carabiner really more complex than device extension and friction hitches, in yalls mind? I've never had snag or abrasion issues pulling a biner block since you can easily manipulate the biner block away from the wall by just pulling/flicking the rope away from the wall. The biner block will have just about reached you by the time the ropes own weight pulls itself through. Different story if the rappel rings are set back over a ledge and foliage or rocks. Then I wouldn't use.

I will disagree with OP though: it's not that single strand rappels are better or safer. It's assisted brake devices that are better and safer. And there are 3 dual rope assisted break devices that I know of which negate the need for a block, third hand, or extension

Using two grigri in tandem like someone else said in this thread is pure tomfoolery

@allen I imagine anyone who knows biner blocks know munters.... I would hope

Brent Kellywrote:

I also mostly do single-pitch sport climbs, so maybe that's a big reason why I find the single strand biner block to be super-convenient and just as safe when being lowered through mussy hooks or rings isn't an option.)

In the rare case that I rap off a single pitch route (naked glueins, single quick links, sharp rock, etc) I'll do a counterweight rappel now. Basically simulrap but the other person starts just standing on the ground. You get to still tram in on the other strand this way.

The Butterfly knot is a climbers best friend :) 

The Butterfly isolates both ropes - allowing single rope descent.
If 3 or more people and time is short, the Butterfly also permits simul-abseils (2 people descending side-by-side).
Last person down unties the Butterfly and descends with a device that accepts double ropes.

Butterfly knot also permits a safety top-managed belay to be employed - useful for professional Guides.

J Ewrote:

The actual action of rappelling is safer and simpler and just generally more enjoyable using a mechanical descender (grigri, matik, lifeguard, and dozens upon dozens more). Especially safer if that device has an antipanic function. There's a reason tubers and 8s aren't the industry standard in rope access work

@allen I imagine anyone who knows biner blocks know munters.... I would hope

Do you have any data to support your statement? Rope access work while a derivative of recreational climbing it has a different set of standards.

As for the munter hitch, I would not count on it. I am probably a good example. I hate the munter hitch, have not used it in 30+ years. Could probably tie but would not use if I had no device as there are other alternatives.

J E wrote:

It's common sense. Rappelling vis descender is simpler (fewer steps, and those steps are less complex), therefore there is less opportunity for human error, therefore it is safer. Descenders will halt an incapacitated climber, whereas an atc will not without a friction hitch (and let's not even get started on leg loop vs tie in loops). A descender has fewer quirks to deal with, unlike a prussik which often needs fiddling to get the right amount of friction, or ropes twisting

Your points are well taken but there is difference between anecdotal evidence and actual data. I am looking for actual data.

J E wrote:

It's common sense. Rappelling vis descender is simpler (fewer steps, and those steps are less complex)

I would argue that rappelling with a descender adds more complexity with the addition of some sort of block to rappel on one strand. It is probably at least the same amount of steps, probably more, to set up a single strand rappel with a Grigri than a normal rappel with an atc.

therefore there is less opportunity for human error, therefore it is safer. Descenders will halt an incapacitated climber, whereas an atc will not without a friction hitch (and let's not even get started on leg loop vs tie in loops). 

A lot of this depends on weight, type of friction hitch, and amount of rope below you. On a long rappel, with lots of rope below me, I can often take by hands off the rope without a prussic and not move, although that’s not really a good idea. With a prussic, I can take my hands off the rope anywhere, but it’s still not a great idea. As for leg loops ve tie in loops, it depends on each person. I use my tie in loop, but it’s personal preference that you only have to learn once.

A descender has fewer quirks to deal with, unlike a prussik which often needs fiddling to get the right amount of friction, or ropes twisting.

Ropes twisting with an atc is not a big issue, as the bar in between the two slots prevents it. With a figure 8, it is an issue. Also, once I know how many wraps I need in a prussic, I just use that amount.

I am also surprised that, 3 pages in, no one has mentioned how getting it in the head by a carabiner falling from the pitch above hurts and probably can’t be good for your brain, even with a helmet.

Brian Monettiwrote:

This can work great, but it is not foolproof and can become very unsafe. If the person with the ATC isn't fully weighting the device, such as if they are standing comfortably on a ledge or just partially weighting it because they are tethered to the anchor or whatever, the rope will just slide right through when the Grigri person starts rapping. I've tested this with a partner who weighed about the same as me, and we were both really surprised how easily the rope would slip through unless all your body weight was on the ATC.

This really needs to be repeated more often. A lot of people are under the false impression that pre-rigging the ATC will fix the rope. It does not. Pre-rigging the ATC adds a lot of friction in the system, but it doesn't "fix" the rope like how we normally think of a fixed rope (tied off at the anchor). A skinny and slippery rope can slip through the ATC without additional mitigation methods.