Dogs that bite

Bruno it is WILD to me that you are casting the expectation that dogs who are likely to bite strangers be kept away from strangers as “entitled”. It is the dog owners who bring their dogs out and expect others to just know to keep their distance, or guess at what speed they should move at in order to not get bitten who are entitled.  

Yes dogs like every single animal including humans have certain behaviors they will perceive as enough of a threat that they will escalate to physical violence. Any human or animal whose threshold is low enough that they perceive ordinary human behaviors as crossing this threshold and act on it should not be out in public. Or should be very tightly controlled/muzzled if they must be in public for some reason. The idea that escalating to physical violence for “coming too close” or moving too fast or being too loud absent any other sign of threat is legitimate or a form of self defense is ludicrous. 

The owner in this example knew that his dog shouldn’t be around strangers, and almost took enough precaution to keep that from happening by having the dog leashed off out of the way. They just needed to take that a little further, and put the dog somewhere even further away, and enclosed, in order to be certain it doesn’t happen. Somewhere like oh I don’t know, their home. 

nowherewrote:

Bruno it is WILD to me that you are casting the expectation that dogs who are likely to bite strangers be kept away from strangers as “entitled”. It is the dog owners who bring their dogs out and expect others to just know to keep their distance, or guess at what speed they should move at in order to not get bitten who are entitled.  

Yes dogs like every single animal including humans have certain behaviors they will perceive as enough of a threat that they will escalate to physical violence. Any human or animal whose threshold is low enough that they perceive ordinary human behaviors as crossing this threshold and act on it should not be out in public. Or should be very tightly controlled/muzzled if they must be in public for some reason. The idea that escalating to physical violence for “coming too close” or moving too fast or being too loud absent any other sign of threat is legitimate or a form of self defense is ludicrous. 

The owner in this example knew that his dog shouldn’t be around strangers, and almost took enough precaution to keep that from happening by having the dog leashed off out of the way. They just needed to take that a little further, and put the dog somewhere even further away, and enclosed, in order to be certain it doesn’t happen. Somewhere like oh I don’t know, their home. 

The only extra precaution needed was to put a muzzle on the dog. Like it’sa dead simple  solution. You’re never going to convince people not to bring their dogs because to many of those people dogs are family. You'll have an easier time convincing people to use what is effectively a hat for the  mouth.

Unless, of course, it was never about the biting to you 

J Ewrote:

The only extra precaution needed was to put a muzzle on the dog. Like it’sa dead simple  solution. You’re never going to convince people not to bring their dogs because to many of those people dogs are family. You'll have an easier time convincing people to use what is effectively a hat for the  mouth.

Unless, of course, it was never about the biting to you 

Here is a website that teaches how to muzzle train for any of you interested dog owners. 

Good to do even for the easiest going of dogs because if they ever do have to wear a muzzle it won't be a bad experience. 

Both the dogs and their owners should be shot.

Steve Williamswrote:

Both the dogs and their owners should be shot.

Yes vaccines are important

Adam Rwrote:

Here is a website that teaches how to muzzle train for any of you interested dog owners. 

Good to do even for the easiest going of dogs because if they ever do have to wear a muzzle it won't be a bad experience. 

lol its not the easiest going of dogs that are the ones needing the muzzles though

@ Nowhere--I empathize with your consternation.  As WILD as you find my view (mirroring your use of caps) I find your perspective astonishing.  It's always interesting when two people have such diverghent views, but I guess that's life.

@ Leron # 1--so now we have a 12 year old startled brother throwing a rock that causes stitches.  Well, before I answer, I would need to know more information.  I think we could both immagine situations where throwing a rock was warranted, and situations where it was not.  So hard to say.  Same with the dog encounter.

@ Leron # 2--the dog-gun comparison is intriguing and has come up in the past.  There are some parallels on an abstract level.  The big difference, I think, is that dog are living things, with their own "soul" so to speak, and should be treated as such.  

@ JE and other who like the idea of muzzles...once again my views are very different.  I think muzzles as appropriate in some circumstances such as for dogs that have proven to be aggresive and have a bite that could inflect serious and potentially fatal damage.  But for a "normal" dog with its family, I think is muzzle is a cruel form of torture.  It reflects a very human-centric view of dogs, and fails to honor what our human relationship to dogs represents.  A muzzle is much more than a "paper hat" for a dogs nose.  Putting a muzzle on a dog is similar to tying down a dogs tail--it prevents the dog from interacting with the world in a normal and fulfilling way.  Smelling, sniffing, licking, touching, exploring, kissing.  These are part of a dog's life, and preventing a dog from using its mouth and nose in a normal was is unecessary and cruel, when the alternative, simply modifying our own behavior somewhat, is far more generous and fair.  

Last point, to those who say, "just leave the dog at home," some dogs are happy to stay home and sleep, but most dogs are overjoyed when their master/family/pack returns, and most dogs are ridiculosly excited when they get to go on adventures with their owners.  Leaving a dog at home is in many cases a kind of torture or abandonment.  I think part of owning a dog is giving a dog a full life.  And part of that is 1) being with dogs and not leaving them alone, 2) letting dogs explore freely off leash in nature and 3) letting dogs associate and socialze with other dogs and people.  For dogs that enjoy crags, these three aims are fulfilled.  All it takes is for the dog to be moderately well behaved and for people to me moderately tolerant, as we are talking about a public space.  As I have said, my dog doesn't enjoy the crag, so I don't bring her, but enjoy the crag, I certainly would bring her.  Instead, I take her hiking, trail running, mountain biking, and so on, often in the company of other people and dogs.  Nothing she enjoys more than a day out in nature with her pack. 

Gratuitous picture of a crag dog:

Bruno Schullwrote:

@ Nowhere--I empathize with your consternation.  As WILD as you find my view (mirroring your use of caps) I find your perspective astonishing.  It's always interesting when two people have such diverghent views, but I guess that's life.

@ Leron # 1--so now we have a 12 year old startled brother throwing a rock that causes stitches.  Well, before I answer, I would need to know more information.  I think we could both immagine situations where throwing a rock was warranted, and situations where it was not.  So hard to say.  Same with the dog encounter.

@ Leron # 2--the dog-gun comparison is intriguing and has come up in the past.  There are some parallels on an abstract level.  The big difference, I think, is that dog are living things, with their own "soul" so to speak, and should be treated as such.  

@ JE and other who like the idea of muzzles...once again my views are very different.  I think muzzles as appropriate in some circumstances such as for dogs that have proven to be aggresive and have a bite that could inflect serious and potentially fatal damage.  But for a "normal" dog with its family, I think is muzzle is a cruel form of torture.  It reflects a very human-centric view of dogs, and fails to honor what our human relationship to dogs represents.  A muzzle is much more than a "paper hat" for a dogs nose.  Putting a muzzle on a dog is similar to tying down a dogs tail--it prevents the dog from interacting with the world in a normal and fulfilling way.  Smelling, sniffing, licking, touching, exploring, kissing.  These are part of a dog's life, and preventing a dog from using its mouth and nose in a normal was is unecessary and cruel, when the alternative, simply modifying our own behavior somewhat, is far more generous and fair.  

Last point, to those who say, "just leave the dog at home," some dogs are happy to stay home and sleep, but most dogs are overjoyed when their master/family/pack returns, and most dogs are ridiculosly excited when they get to go on adventures with their owners.  Leaving a dog at home is in many cases a kind of torture or abandonment.  I think part of owning a dog is giving a dog a full life.  And part of that is 1) being with dogs and not leaving them alone, 2) letting dogs explore freely off leash in nature and 3) letting dogs associate and socialze with other dogs and people.  For dogs that enjoy crags, these three aims are fulfilled.  All it takes is for the dog to be moderately well behaved and for people to me moderately tolerant, as we are talking about a public space.  As I have said, my dog doesn't enjoy the crag, so I don't bring her, but enjoy the crag, I certainly would bring her.  Instead, I take her hiking, trail running, mountain biking, and so on, often in the company of other people and dogs.  Nothing she enjoys more than a day out in nature with her pack. 

Gratuitous picture of a crag dog:

When I read what you write, I think of Trump, just sayin. 

@ Michael--That's funny, because when I read what so many of the anti crag dog people write, I think of Desantis!  

it's over, dog shills btfo

Bruno you’re just blatantly wrong about muzzles there are plenty that would prevent biting and allow everything else you said. Torture? Really? Come on.

I timed myself 43.2 seconds to destroy your argument   a.co/d/iMFwnUe

JE, if you think your respnse destroys my argument, you're delusional.  Why don't you wear that muzzle around yourself for a day, and see how you like it?

Bruno Schullwrote:

JE, if you think your respnse destroys my argument, you're delusional.  Why don't you wear that muzzle around yourself for a day, and see how you like it

I’m sure if that muzzle was made to fit my face I would do just fine. Just like I can wear sunglasses, helmets, gloves, etc all day. Football players also seems to do just fine.

That muzzle is fully open and allows the dog to sniff, smell, lick, and probably even chew small toys.

Is it torture for a dog to be on a leash? After all, dogs are mad to run around and they can’t do that on a leash. Ridiculous notion

Bruno Schullwrote:

JE, if you think your respnse destroys my argument, you're delusional.  Why don't you wear that muzzle around yourself for a day, and see how you like it?

We all lived through COVID, we all had to wear masks, we all survived. A dog can make it a few hours with a muzzle on just fine. It is far from torture. Now is it overkill for most dogs? Absolutely. 

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

We all lived through COVID, we all had to wear masks, we all survived.

Okay, so I didn't want to be the first to draw an inference between muzzles and masking during COVID, but I'm glad you did. There are a lot of similarities between the two, and just like masking, you'll find many opposed to it for myriad reasons.

@Bruno you wrote this:

 I think part of owning a dog is giving a dog a full life.  And part of that is 1) being with dogs and not leaving them alone, 2) letting dogs explore freely off leash in nature and 3) letting dogs associate and socialze with other dogs and people.

Which I think is spot on. I do think it’s important to provide those things for your dog, but you should do them in an appropriate venue for the dog that doesn’t detract from other users experience-take your dog to the dog park, on a hike, to the deep backcountry empty crag etc. if you can’t do that and have time to climb, then don’t climb or don’t have a dog, doing otherwise is selfish, putting your needs/desires ahead of others.

And to the muzzle thing you are wayyyy off base. I have worked many many 12 hour shifts wearing an n95. It’s a minor inconvenience to have your face covered. If I could wear one that I could eat and drink through and still got the job done it wouldn’t even be that. 

Wow whenever these threads come up I figure Bruno must have to take a day off work just to simp.

And so it goes. On and on. Crag dog threads: The gift that never stops giving. 

Gratuitous crag dog picture!

Ha! Let’s all meet back up here in 6-8 months for more of the same.

behead, bepaw, besnout

universal canine trisection