When is it chipping?

C Gwrote:

Maybe an unpopular opinion among people who really have no understanding about how routes are developed but….If it creaks, wobbles, sloughs, or crunches with reasonable pressure from a hand or foot, clean it. Otherwise, you are being lazy and leaving work for someone else to do.

OP, your crack cleaning is fair game. 

I am as anti-manufacturing as they come and I don’t think this is controversial or unpopular at all. In my experience those who don’t know much about development are all about manufacturing, chipping, drilling, etc so long as the end result is “fun”

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

I am as anti-manufacturing as they come and I don’t think this is controversial or unpopular at all. In my experience those who don’t know much about development are all about manufacturing, chipping, drilling, etc so long as the end result is “fun”

I mean even in this thread people are saying using a hammer is chipping. Just yesterday I was working on a route where I had a small flake/crimp flexing fairly significantly by hand but I wasn’t in a good position pull it off with my hand, and didn’t have a great slot behind it for my hammer or nut tool to get in there to pry it off, so I hit it very casually with my hammer and it immediately shattered off cleanly. I’ve had people refer to that as chipping to my face before. What about when crowbars get involved? Where’s the line around taking a super sharp edge with something to dull it a bit? I've absolutely deliberately chipped away some rock to ensure a hanger sits flush and is safe - is that an ethical transgression even though you'd never be able to see it since it's under the hanger? There’s a lot of variables it seems and I think your last point is the most accurate - folks don’t wanna see how the sausage is made.

IMO: chipping/ethical violations happen when you cross the line past things that would have naturally happened given enough time (reasonable - decades, not eons) and traffic to a route. Pulling off a loose hold that might hold body weight now but probably wouldn’t after a few freeze/thaws is fine. Cleaning a loose chock or dirt out of a crack is fine. Drilling pockets or chiseling out holds is not.

That’s why I pre-grease up all of my routes so nobody ever has to say “oh I remember when this route actually had friction”

Climbers will argue about ethics when cleaning a bit of rock off a route and not bat an eye when they go skiing where an entire forest is cut down for funsies lol

As Justice Potter Stewart of SCOTUS said back in 1964  "I know it when I see it"

Tal Mwrote:

I've absolutely deliberately chipped

got 'em boys, call the police

T Dwrote:

Climbers will argue about ethics when cleaning a bit of rock off a route and not bat an eye when they go skiing where an entire forest is cut down for funsies lol

I don't ski and actually agree its disgusting destruction for our entertainment.

But it is funny, trees are at least renewable. Removing loose rock can trigger some people, but literally DRILLING HOLES to permanently damage the oldest matter on this planet, to then excavate just as old minerals from the earth in destructive ways, to forge it into bolts to put into said holes of something most climbers would call Sacred(the rock itself) simply for our entertainment and safety to continue up the rock is a "necessity".

5Seven Kevinwrote:

something most climbers would call Sacred(the rock itself) simply for our entertainment and safety to continue up the rock is a "necessity".

Nothing says “this is sacred to me” like coating it in shoe rubber, chalk, and residual Cheeto dust. 

5Seven Kevinwrote:

I don't ski and actually agree its disgusting destruction for our entertainment.

But it is funny, trees are at least renewable. Removing loose rock can trigger some people, but literally DRILLING HOLES to permanently damage the oldest matter on this planet, to then excavate just as old minerals from the earth in destructive ways, to forge it into bolts to put into said holes of something most climbers would call Sacred(the rock itself) simply for our entertainment and safety to continue up the rock is a "necessity".

Stardust is the oldest matter on earth. I have never climbed on stardust. Sounds worse than South Platte granite. 

Zach Baerwrote:

I don't have a problem with cleaning routes. There are degrees to which it's acceptable, but cleaning rotten rock or dirt seems fine to me for a single pitch trad route. Does anyone ground up single pitch these days? Have they ever?

In terms of chipping granite with a nut tool, no. It's completely shit rock that will be excavated by hands or pro within a hundred ascents.

There are plenty of places where the ethic is still ground up, by hand, yes. National Parks in the US are often this way because of the history of the area and a ban on rotary drills. Might you then do more cleaning on rap after you put all the bolts in the hard way? Sure, but you still did it that way first.

Tal Mwrote:

Nothing says “this is sacred to me” like coating it in shoe rubber, chalk, and residual Cheeto dust. 

Let's give a popular sport climbing cliff one small decade to return to nature. After we return, do you believe all of that will still be there, and the holes and bolts will of healed?

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

Stardust is the oldest matter on earth. I have never climbed on stardust. Sounds worse than South Platte granite. 

There is no stardust on earth, we ARE stardust. Almost all of our elements are created from the process of a dying star reforming into a solar system, everything is made from the same matter from the first dying star of the solar system before the sun. The only argument we can make would possibly be Meteors from outside the solar system. 

Astronomy is the only thing that interests me more than climbing, sorry:)

I guess the real grey area lies in the art of cleaning.  You can pry a flexing flake off Willy-Nilly and play it as it lies. Or you can pry it off with greater intention so that it leaves a useable edge.

There is some chossy granite out there that doesn’t just “come off” in clean form. You’ve got to bang at kitty litter till you hit the hard stuff. This leaves loads of room for “artistic expression” when it comes to whatever hold is left behind.

Curious where the line is in peoples minds.

5Seven Kevinwrote:

There is no stardust on earth, we ARE stardust. Almost all of our elements are created from the process of a dying star reforming into a solar system, everything is made from the same matter from the first dying star of the solar system before the sun. The only argument we can make would possibly be Meteors from outside the solar system. 

Astronomy is the only thing that interests me more than climbing, sorry:)

Geologists would disagree...presolar silicon carbides (stardust) pre-date any other forms of matter. Meteors coming from elsewhere would qualify as matter “on this planet”. Their origin has nothing to do with being “on this planet”. If you somehow deem this as unqualified then one could probably make an argument that gases or water particles came before rock, making them the oldest matter “on“ earth as most methane and other carbon gases arose from the Earth before being released into the atmosphere during the Hadean. I could be wrong, but I actually believe the oldest rocks have evidence of water being present prior to their formation. Making water older than rocks as well. Geology is cool. 

I always know when I'm cleaning and when I'm chipping. The more honest I am with myself the less I chip but I always get rid of sharp bits if possible

Here's but one data point:

BITD we went to climb a relatively new (at the time) route in Toulumne, The Holdless Horror, supposedly a 5.7. We backed off on P1 as the crack was completely filled with dirt and plants and we didn't want to do that much gardening.

T Dwrote:

Climbers will argue about ethics when cleaning a bit of rock off a route and not bat an eye when they go skiing where an entire forest is cut down for funsies lol

Yeah but excessive choss isn’t leading to uncontainable wildfires every year either :shrug:

Overall better than expected comments.

If this were a new route I would have had no qualms. I'm confident this isn't "chipping" in the "manufacturing holds" sense now.

Rather it's more a question of what level of post-FA cleaning is OK. I wouldn't crowbar a safe flake on an established climb, but definitely would scrub clean holds that nobody else uses. I guess there's some grey area in middle that I didn't realize before.

Zach Baerwrote:

Yes! I'll be the ignorant dude mp calls out here. My understanding is after people generally accepted rap bolting, cleaning single pitch routes on rap (even "trad" routes) became the standard.

Hi Zach, 

I don’t think you are ignorant. Your question is fair.
For me, the ground up, no pre-inspection or cleaning, first ascent will always be the purest style. That doesn’t mean that I denigrate anyone for pre-inspection, rap-cleaning or bolting. The VAST majority of the time, I’m on an easy route mentioned in the guidebook, and I generally appreciate good protection, and clean solid rock, and I don’t really care about the first ascent style, if the route is not chipped.
That said, a ground-up, no pre-inspection, no cleaning traditionally protected first ascent will always be the purest style.
 If you are using a cutting or striking tool of any type to manufacture or enhance a hold of any type, that is chipping. Don’t do it. It’s bad ju-ju.

Zach Baerwrote:

Yes! I'll be the ignorant dude mp calls out here. My understanding is after people generally accepted rap bolting, cleaning single pitch routes on rap (even "trad" routes) became the standard.

“Cleaning,” single pitch trad routes before a first ascent is not necessarily the most common approach, but in some locales, it has been done for many decades. This is particularly true in very wet regions such as the Pacific Northwest where beautiful rock was and is buried under moss, lichen, dirt, mud and unspeakable filth. Trees were felled on at least one location to allow rock to dry in the sun. Large swaths of lichen and moss were sometimes removed.
In my opinion, this is type of aggressive cleaning should rarely, if ever, occur today, in most locales. If it does occur, it should probably be done by locals, with permission from local or regional land managers.
Whether or not pre-cleaning single pitch trad routes is currently “the standard,” is difficult to say, and probably differs depending on region and locale. I would say that if you are in doubt, don’t do it. If you are a local who is sure of yourself, or an experienced first ascentionist, then you don’t need and shouldn’t necessarily heed my advice.
 Regardless of where you are, don’t chip holds. That is bad juju. You don’t want bad juju, when you are climbing.