When is it chipping?

 Every time a hold is chipped an angel's wings fall off 

Todd Berlier wrote:

yeah, but everytime a limestone pocket gets comfortized they get them back, so it evens out in the end.

This is why Ten Sleep is so heavenly 

Not a Bad Guywrote:

Rather it's more a question of what level of post-FA cleaning is OK. I wouldn't crowbar a safe flake on an established climb, but definitely would scrub clean holds that nobody else uses. I guess there's some grey area in middle that I didn't realize before.

Lots of post-FA cleaning going on in my neck of the woods: Durango. WAY post...like decades after the fa and hundreds of ascents since. Flakes pulled off, ledges trundled, holds that have been cranked on for years smacked with a hammer, pried off, whatever. Chipping in my book. Curious to what degree this is happening elsewhere? 

Lots of post-FA cleaning going on in my neck of the woods: Durango. WAY post...like decades after the fa and hundreds of ascents since. Flakes pulled off, ledges trundled, holds that have been cranked on for years smacked with a hammer, pried off, whatever. Chipping in my book.

That's my take as well. And the people doing it know it's chipping too, it just makes them uncomfortable to admit it hence this thread.

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

That's my take as well. And the people doing it know it's chipping too, it just makes them uncomfortable to admit it hence this thread.

The question for me would be: Would the FA clean it like people are today if the FA was FAing today? My understanding is that even rock changes over time so something that did not need to be cleaned a few decades ago could be in the state of needing to be cleaned present day.

-mnwrote:

Lots of post-FA cleaning going on in my neck of the woods: Durango. WAY post...like decades after the fa and hundreds of ascents since. Flakes pulled off, ledges trundled, holds that have been cranked on for years smacked with a hammer, pried off, whatever. Chipping in my book. Curious to what degree this is happening elsewhere? 

Like I’ve mentioned before, I am as anti-manufacturing as they come. With that said; Flakes pulled off by hand? I’d categorize that as cleaning. Entire ledges trundled? Again, cleaning. Holds they have been climbed for years and then hit off with a hammer? Definitely chipping/manufacturing.

I feel every instance should be a case by case basis overall. It seems like I’m your instance the holds removed were around for quite some time which makes it a bit more complicated. But if something can be removed by hand static-ly, as in without striking it with a hammer, chisel, or drill and is removed by leverage via crowbar, hammer, etc then it’s cleaning in my book. Obviously a polarizing topic that can bleed into a large grey area though.