When is it chipping?

Let's say you get on a classic granite trad climb and a crux hold is a 1 pad finger slot that you just have to layback. You feel a rattle in the back and realize that a little chockstone was just held in with dirt and is now loose. A few seconds of fishing with a nut tool and it pops out. But it turns out the whole back of the crack is just rotten rock held in by mud. With 10 seconds of scraping another marble-sized piece pops out. And another. And another. And within 2 minutes it's now a perfect finger lock and the climb is probably a letter grade easier.

It's a headpoint route (possibly has never been onsighted) and hundreds of people have hung around that slot for hours and didn't excavate it. Did it just get loose? Or did nobody else think this was a good idea? The slot is also often the 1st gear placement and it's notorious for people ripping gear and decking, but takes a much better cam now.

Can you chip granite with a nut tool? I still feel like the answer is no, but I do feel a bit guilty for changing the route.

I don't have a problem with cleaning routes. There are degrees to which it's acceptable, but cleaning rotten rock or dirt seems fine to me for a single pitch trad route. Does anyone ground up single pitch these days? Have they ever?

In terms of chipping granite with a nut tool, no. It's completely shit rock that will be excavated by hands or pro within a hundred ascents.

That's not chipping, that's breaking the beta.  :-)

Removing loose gravel and dirt is called gardening.

And yes people do ground up single pitch trad routes. 

Zach Baerwrote:

I don't have a problem with cleaning routes. There are degrees to which it's acceptable, but cleaning rotten rock or dirt seems fine to me for a single pitch trad route. Does anyone ground up single pitch these days? Have they ever?

I have. More than once......

climber patwrote:

Removing loose gravel and dirt is called gardening.

And yes people do ground up single pitch trad routes. 

Also, people do ground up single pitch sport routes.

Not a Bad Guywrote:

Let's say you get on a classic granite trad climb and a crux hold is a 1 pad finger slot that you just have to layback. You feel a rattle in the back and realize that a little chockstone was just held in with dirt and is now loose. A few seconds of fishing with a nut tool and it pops out. But it turns out the whole back of the crack is just rotten rock held in by mud. With 10 seconds of scraping another marble-sized piece pops out. And another. And another. And within 2 minutes it's now a perfect finger lock and the climb is probably a letter grade easier.

It's a headpoint route (possibly has never been onsighted) and hundreds of people have hung around that slot for hours and didn't excavate it. Did it just get loose? Or did nobody else think this was a good idea? The slot is also often the 1st gear placement and it's notorious for people ripping gear and decking, but takes a much better cam now.

Can you chip granite with a nut tool? I still feel like the answer is no, but I do feel a bit guilty for changing the route.

If you only use your hands it’s not chipping, no tools.

Zach Baerwrote:

 Does anyone leave the gyms these days? Have they ever?

Fixed for ya

Oh boy…

Fine line between cleaning and chipping, but on granite, there's a much bigger margin that falls on the cleaning side IMO.  Year after year, ascent after ascent, and winter after winter the holds that were once permaglued to the mountain with roots and mud, become death bombs that will come out (intentionally or not.)  I've pulled plenty of loose holds by hand on routes that see a lot of traffic, especially after big winters.  Just the way she goes.

Not a Bad Guywrote:

Can you chip granite with a nut tool? I still feel like the answer is no, but I do feel a bit guilty for changing the route.

You can only get hate for what you admit in public. Personally I feel that chipping involves hammering/hitting the rock. Rest is just cleanup.

Locker wrote:

Are those serious questions???

 

Yes! I'll be the ignorant dude mp calls out here. My understanding is after people generally accepted rap bolting, cleaning single pitch routes on rap (even "trad" routes) became the standard.

Zach Baerwrote:

I don't have a problem with cleaning routes. There are degrees to which it's acceptable, but cleaning rotten rock or dirt seems fine to me for a single pitch trad route. Does anyone ground up single pitch these days? Have they ever?

In terms of chipping granite with a nut tool, no. It's completely shit rock that will be excavated by hands or pro within a hundred ascents.

Ummmm, if you aren’t being sarcastic when asking this question then I would suggest doing some more research on developing routes before contributing to a thread of this polarity. If you are being facetious, then carry on, great troll job. 

Don't tell him that! 80% of the fun on MP is watching grossly under qualified people give advice on things they've never done or even researched before

5Seven Kevinwrote:

Don't tell him that! 80% of the fun on MP is watching grossly under qualified people give advice on things they've never done or even researched before

That is we’re it’s at! I mean personally I am a bouldering expert

5Seven Kevinwrote:

Don't tell him that! 80% of the fun on MP is watching grossly under qualified people give advice on things they've never done or even researched before

No shit! This is where MP really shines. 

I'm not trolling, I'm just adding my opinion to the discourse. This is in general, not the fixed anchor/developing subforum. Isn't every person entitled to their opinion on a given topic? Not saying I'm a prophet and you have to obey my law, just saying what I think.

Also I agree this is where mp shines. Not to say I like trolls.

Anyway, what do y'all think of cleaning routes, and how they can change over time?

Zach Baerwrote:

I'm not trolling, I'm just adding my opinion to the discourse. This is in general, not the fixed anchor/developing subforum. Isn't every person entitled to their opinion on a given topic? Not saying I'm a prophet and you have to obey my law, just saying what I think.

There’s a point where some background knowledge is required to further conversation and/or contribute in a meaningful way. When you ask if sport routes have ever been done ground up that greatly tarnishes your credibility towards this conversation. You’re entitled to your opinion, it’s just not going to be taken seriously with a comment like that in this context. I’m still not convinced this isn’t a quality troll job though

Anyway, what do y'all think of cleaning routes, and how they can change over time?

Ok, now I’m starting to think you’re serious and just don’t know what cleaning routes truly entails…

Todd Berlier wrote:

sometimes when im feeling really crazy, ill ground up a boulder problem.

Does anyone develop boulders ground up, these days? Have they ever?!

Maybe an unpopular opinion among people who really have no understanding about how routes are developed but….If it creaks, wobbles, sloughs, or crunches with reasonable pressure from a hand or foot, clean it. Otherwise, you are being lazy and leaving work for someone else to do.

OP, your crack cleaning is fair game. 

In the gunks if it looks like the rock isn’t quite perfect people take a pry bar and a chisel to it. Well maybe not anymore, but the idea back in the day was aggressive cleaning (chipping gear placements and to a degree improving holds, usually knocking off potentially fragile pebbles or fragile but somewhat solid features) was ok ish. Going ham with a nut tool in a dirty crack ain’t even close to the historical line in many parts of the country. Plus there are plenty of blatantly chipped climbs in the country, thug life stands out as the chipped jugs halfway up are the first thing you see as you get to drive by crag.