Rope soloing and ground anchors: ethics discussion (uh oh)

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Looks like Yann disabled new comments but I'm still seeing all the old comments. Do you not see them? Not sure how FB groups and permissions and all that works so I don't know what's going on, but I'm definitely looking at them right now. 

Dang I love me some drama. All I found were that guys screenshots where he's talking about how his car is more expensive than somebody's house or something and his lawyers kids need new toys. Hardly even a taste... 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

I see, sure. I read through the drama post on the LRS Facebook group. Rope Solo McDrillFace definitely decided he was just going to walk up to someone else's route and drill a ground anchor due to astonishing levels of laziness as a rope soloist. 

Why are we having a conversation here if it’s in another group, do we need an internet thread every time someone litters?

Eric Roewrote:

Some of you are missing the point here.  Yea it's a small issue, but it's still an issue.

Would you pound a sixer and leave the cans below a climb? Obviously not. What if you had a couple starburst and flicked the wrappers on the ground? The argument some of you are making is "It's a small piece of trash, who cares. There's already trash here from other sources". Clearly the right thing to do is put the wrapper in your pocket and throw it away later. It's not about the magnitude of the transgression, it's the fact that it's a net negative when it would be nearly as convenient to do things differently in a way that isn't a net negative.

Is it a huge issue worth gnashing your teeth over, probably not. But the issue was raised so it makes sense to call out the bad practice and educate everyone reading that better methods exist.

Starting a thread on a national forum after this apparently is in Facebook group is some real facebook karen stuff. Yeah it is not great by why didn’t the op patch the hole if it’s such a large deal? Seems internet points are more important than being a steward. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Why are we having a conversation here if it’s in another group, do we need an internet thread every time someone litters?

Because that thread is locked and because this forum can include “normal” climbers in the discussion versus just soloists. You would have known that if you read my first post

Starting a thread on a national forum after this apparently is in Facebook group is some real facebook karen stuff. Yeah it is not great by why didn’t the op patch the hole if it’s such a large deal? Seems internet points are more important than being a steward.

Why didn’t I, currently residing in florida, fly to Slovenia to patch the 4 holes this guy drilled for a two bolt temporary anchor? And again, you can easily find the reason I brought the discussion here in my original post. Give it a read

J Ewrote:

Maybe screaming baby distracted me, my bad. I read that as you joined a discussion and you were chiming in with your story. If you come to seattle your welcome to put a ground anchor in anything in north bend, I don’t care, I think it would be hilarious!!

My point stands regardless. If you see litter, pick it up. Don’t start some national discussion especially if you just leave the litter behind.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

My point stands regardless. If you see litter, pick it up. Don’t start some national discussion especially if you just leave the litter behind.

It would be super easy to find a pebble or two, a hand sized rock and pound them in the holes, then just walk away. No need to make a mountain out of a molehill.

J Ewrote:

So what you're saying is you would be upset if more stainless steel was installed where it was unnecessary for stainless steel to be installed, like a route that has natural anchors? Because that's the argumnent that could be made against drilling holes in the rock when natural or pre-existing protection can be used 99.999% of the time.

Now we're splitting hairs. Leave no trace, leave minimal trace, whatever. The point is that we should be minimizing our impact on our natural resources. When homeboy drills holes in the rock, those will never go away. Not in our lifetimes. Yes, the same is true of steel hangers, but again, at least those provide utility for any climber and not just the one dude.

Huh? He could use it every day for the rest of his life. Doesn't make a difference

I keep hearing "one time use" so forgive me, I only get my pitchfork out when there is hard evidence. I dont FB so possibly some screenshots of the actual conversation would be helpful.

Sure the whole thing sounds pretty n00bish but if drilling is allowed without permission this is the result. Any claim of LNT is absolutely ridiculous at a sport crag, backpedaling to "leave minimal trace" makes it seem as if you know this.

Now i gotta go toss my cookies after agreeing with puppy lovr...

M Mwrote:

I keep hearing "one time use" so forgive me, I only get my pitchfork out when there is hard evidence. I dont FB so possibly some screenshots of the actual conversation would be helpful.

Sure the whole thing sounds pretty n00bish but if drilling is allowed without permission this is the result. Any claim of LNT is absolutely ridiculous at a sport crag, backpedaling to "leave minimal trace" makes it seem as if you know this.

Now i gotta go toss my cookies after agreeing with puppy lovr...

If there’s a way to capture it all in one image sure, I’m not going to sit here all day stitching together screenshots and blocking out names/pictures just so you and puppy lover can have context which I’ve accurately described and has been corroborated by multiple different users now

I haven’t backpedaled on anything, I would still describe it as a LNT mindset. I think getting hung up in terminology is pointless. Nothing we do is truly without trace; yes, sport climbing leaves a big trace, but I will repeat for the millionth time a point you all seem to be ignoring: bolts and permanent anchors have a utility and serve a purpose for any climber. Holes drilled and left in the wall benefit no one except for the guy that drilled them.

J Ewrote:

. Holes drilled and left in the wall benefit no one except for the guy that drilled them.

there are more empty holes on the crags I visit walls than in the ground. If I had this occur at my crag I would just patch it. If I get inclined to post it to social media I would patch it and show people how to patch in the future. Holes left in the wall could benefit someone. When I rebolted a cave, I used old concrete screw holes to access some climbs. 

M Mwrote:

I keep hearing "one time use" so forgive me, I only get my pitchfork out when there is hard evidence. I dont FB so possibly some screenshots of the actual conversation would be helpful.

Sure the whole thing sounds pretty n00bish but if drilling is allowed without permission this is the result. Any claim of LNT is absolutely ridiculous at a sport crag, backpedaling to "leave minimal trace" makes it seem as if you know this.

Now i gotta go toss my cookies after agreeing with puppy lovr...

I am completely incapable of understanding this perspective. Because it's considered OK (by people who aren't Tradiban at least) to put bolts in the wall to be able to lead a route it's then OK to put bolts in the wall for any reason whatsoever even if they're totally unnecessary? How does that make any damn sense? 

Why do so many people have this binary mindset where if you put bolts in the wall at all then everything is fair game? Permanently modifying a public natural resource is a very serious thing to do. Putting bolts in rock to be able to safely climb routes is widely considered acceptable. Why should adding bolt holes for superfluous and totally unnecessary reasons be considered anything other than littering and damaging our shared natural resources without good cause? 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

there are more empty holes on the crags I visit walls than in the ground. If I had this occur at my crag I would just patch it. If I get inclined to post it to social media I would patch it and show people how to patch in the future. Holes left in the wall could benefit someone. When I rebolted a cave, I used old concrete screw holes to access some climbs. 

I explained to him how to patch the holes he drilled. He called me fanatic and sad, so I thought May as well bring the discussion to a larger audience

ryan climbs sometimes wrote:

Based of the photos of the said crag I’d say this is totally worth blowing up and building that ant hill to die on

Yah Ryan, I gotta disagree with the entire basis of your comment.

A) I don’t feel LNT ethics should be based on how aesthetic a natural area is

B) I don’t think creating a thread in a forum dedicated to discussing the hobby is making a mountain out of anything. This isn’t the United Nations, it’s a climbing forum where we argue tirelessly about whether a Trad route can have bolts or not

Ricky Harlinewrote:

I am completely incapable of understanding this perspective. Because it's considered OK (by people who aren't Tradiban at least) to put bolts in the wall to be able to lead a route it's then OK to put bolts in the wall for any reason whatsoever even if they're totally unnecessary? How does that make any damn sense? 

Why do so many people have this binary mindset where if you put bolts in the wall at all then everything is fair game? Permanently modifying a public natural resource is a very serious thing to do. Putting bolts in rock to be able to safely climb routes is widely considered acceptable. Why should adding bolt holes for superfluous and totally unnecessary reasons be considered anything other than littering and damaging our shared natural resources without good cause? 

Because the sport bolts themselves are “superfluous and unnecessary”.

You have to approach the problem from a logical standpoint. Ask yourself: Why are the sport bolts placed in the first place?

Tradibanwrote:

Because the sport bolts themselves are “superfluous and unnecessary”.

You have to approach the problem from a logical standpoint. Ask yourself: Why are the sport bolts placed in the first place?

Because climbing is fun and we'd have a whole hell of a lot less of it without bolts. Believe it or not, Tradi, some people actually enjoy climbing faces. Horrifying, I know. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Because climbing is fun and we'd have a whole hell of a lot less of it without bolts. Believe it or not, Tradi, some people actually enjoy climbing faces. Horrifying, I know. 

The bottom anchors were put in for the same reason. Do you understand now?

Tradibanwrote:

The bottom anchors were put in for the same reason. Do you understand now?

They provide no benefit because even shitty ass rope soloists like myself are perfectly capable of using the first two bolts of a sport route as the anchor. If one can't figure out how to do that then they are so spectacularly ignorant as a climber and rope soloist that they have no business leading rope solo. 

The lead bolts provide significant benefit and allow people to have an experience they otherwise wouldn't. The ground anchor is facilitating the world's laziest rope soloist to not learn a technique that is considered standard practice. Do you understand now? 

J Ewrote:

I explained to him how to patch the holes he drilled. He called me fanatic and sad, so I thought May as well bring the discussion to a larger audience

Well your group might also be getting trolled then lol

Tradibanwrote:

The bottom anchors were put in for the same reason. Do you understand now?

Bolts are put in for the enjoyment of any and all climbers.

big difference from holes drilled for a removable anchor used by one person

@puppy lover

he has since had a melt down and deleted his Facebook, redirecting his many “fans” to his twitter where he waxes poetic about Tucker Carlson and trump.

I love seeing people justify cliffs getting torn apart by pry bars, chisels , saws, drills and then crowds of people but God save us all when someone comes along and adds a few holes! The logic of its ok because we have fun is completely narcissistic. I have done everything mentioned and still do but holy cow try looking at it from an outsiders shoes. Our shit stinks just like everyone elses.

Fanatic? Definitely.

M Mwrote:

I love seeing people justify cliffs getting torn apart by pry bars, chisels , saws, drills and then crowds of people but God save us all when someone comes along and adds a few holes! The logic of its ok because we have fun is completely narcissistic. I have done everything mentioned and still do but holy cow try looking at it from an outsiders shoes. Our shit stinks just like everyone elses.

Fanatic? Definitely.

Everything you listed is necessary to engage in the sport safely, except for crowds of people which is a problem with every single outdoor hobby in existence 

bolt holes at the base are not necessary for safety.

Ricky Harlinewrote:

They provide no benefit because even shitty ass rope soloists like myself are perfectly capable of using the first two bolts of a sport route as the anchor. If one can't figure out how to do that then they are so spectacularly ignorant as a climber and rope soloist that they have no business leading rope solo. 

The lead bolts provide significant benefit and allow people to have an experience they otherwise wouldn't. The ground anchor is facilitating the world's laziest rope soloist to not learn a technique that is considered standard practice. Do you understand now? 

I think you just proved my point actually.

You have to see it from different perspectives Ricky.