Rope soloing and ground anchors: ethics discussion (uh oh)

This scenario popped up in the LRS FB group and seeing as it’s something that affects everyone, I wanted to bring the discussion here to see if maybe I’m in the wrong.

Situation: 

At a sport crag, a soloist drilled a temporary ground Anchor on a route he did not develop. After removal of the temporary bolts, he did not fill the holes he drilled, but left them as is.

my opinion: 

- this is blatantly unethical for a few reasons. Firstly, adding bolts to any developers route without permission is a no no, even if they’re not part of the climbing.

- secondly, there’s always an alternative way to build a ground anchor that doesn’t involve drilling the rock (natural anchors, ground stakes, stick clipping, using bolt 1 from a neighboring climb, etc)

-thirdly, it’s a blatant violation of the very basic tenant of LNT. Leaving drill holes without at least taking the effort to fill them in with epoxy and rock dust is unsightly and inconsiderate. Creating a permanent ground Anchor would be preferable since at least anyone can benefit from that

I’ve been called a fanatic over these opinions, I’m interested in what the Climbing  community at large thinks

With the methods that have been developed in recent years it is trivially easy to set up a series anchor on the first two bolts of a sport route-- it's maybe only slightly harder than leading the first two bolts of sport route normally with a partner, and even that's debatable. 

There's no argument that having some sort of ground anchor is preferable to the series anchor on the first two bolts method for a whole host of reasons, but the series anchor is super good enough. Home slice that drilled the holes might not know about this slick series anchor technique as most rope soloists don't as they're not in the FB group which is the primary way this knowledge gets passed on, but rope soloists have been using the first two bolts on routes as the anchor in other ways for as long as sport climbing and rope soloing have existed.

He may be an extremely un-knowledgeable rope soloist, but if you can't figure out how to use the first two bolts of a sport route as an anchor in any way on your own that raises the question of whether or not you ought to be rope soloing in the first place. Dude fucked up. No question. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

With the methods that have been developed in recent years it is trivially easy to set up a series anchor on the first two bolts of a sport route-- it's maybe only slightly harder than leading the first two bolts of sport route normally with a partner, and even that's debatable. 

There's no argument that having some sort of ground anchor is preferable to the series anchor on the first two bolts method for a whole host of reasons, but the series anchor is super good enough. Home slice that drilled the holes might not know about this slick series anchor technique as most rope soloists don't as they're not in the FB group which is the primary way this knowledge gets passed on, but rope soloists have been using the first two bolts on routes as the anchor in other ways for as long as sport climbing and rope soloing have existed.

He may be an extremely un-knowledgeable rope soloist, but if you can't figure out how to use the first two bolts of a sport route as an anchor in any way on your own that raises the question of whether or not you ought to be rope soloing in the first place. Dude fucked up. No question. 

Absolutely agree; I prefer natural anchors to the series anchors (FF reduction) but would never dream of poking holes in the wall just so I can solo something

Maybe you hang out with different peeps than I do. But the older developers I am around would find this hilarious. They wouldn’t even be mad!! 

Secondly people f*** shit up., I went up one of, if not the most famous climbs in Washington yesterday. Here are the the errors I noticed: 3 unpatched holes,wedge bolts with more than 3/4 inch of thread sticking out, wedge bolts not engaged just lock tight keeping the hangers on, low quality steel quick links in a wet streak. For some inconvenable reason the first bolt is shared with another climb, the first bolt is off an awkward ledge, where one climber has to unclip the other climber to start the route. The anchor placement leads you into another route. Reading this some people might think wow, that’s terrible. I am thankful that someone spent the time trying to improve this route for me, maybe they didn’t do it 100% perfect but I’m sure it is better now than it was.

Third it is so hard to know the context here. Maybe the dude was gonna rebolt a bunch of routes on the wall and figured two concrete screws would be helpful. Maybe he was tr soloing to assess the bolt placements. Maybe they were an idiot, but coming at some rando with condemnation rather than compassion on a large Internet forum isn’t gonna change the behavior.

Fourth, there are so many bolt holes in the world. So so so so many people complain and do nothing. I often feel like this forum is bunch of middle aged Karen’s at some save the planet rally screaming about litter for 6 hours rather than spend 5 min picking up trash. If a bolt hole is so easy to patch, patch it!

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Maybe you hang out with different peeps than I do. But the older developers I am around would find this hilarious. They wouldn’t even be mad!! 

Secondly people f*** shit up., I went up one of, if not the most famous climbs in Washington yesterday. Here are the the errors I noticed: 3 unpatched holes,wedge bolts with more than 3/4 inch of thread sticking out, wedge bolts not engaged just lock tight keeping the hangers on, low quality steel quick links in a wet streak. For some inconvenable reason the first bolt is shared with another climb, the first bolt is off an awkward ledge, where one climber has to unclip the other climber to start the route. The anchor placement leads you into another route. Reading this some people might think wow, that’s terrible. I am thankful that someone spent the time trying to improve this route for me, maybe they didn’t do it 100% perfect but I’m sure it is better now than it was.

Third it is so hard to know the context here. Maybe the dude was gonna rebolt a bunch of routes on the wall and figured two concrete screws would be helpful. Maybe he was tr soloing to assess the bolt placements. Maybe they were an idiot, but coming at some rando with condemnation rather than compassion on a large Internet forum isn’t gonna change the behavior.

Fourth, there are so many bolt holes in the world. So so so so many people complain and do nothing. I often feel like this forum is bunch of middle aged Karen’s at some save the planet rally screaming about litter for 6 hours rather than spend 5 min picking up trash. If a bolt hole is so easy to patch, patch it!

Permanently altering a public natural resource simply because one can't be assed to use a method that's ever so slightly more inconvenient sounds pretty freakin lame to me.

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Permanently altering a public natural resource simply because one can't be assed to use a method that's ever so slightly more inconvenient sounds pretty freakin lame to me.

That’s not the issue. Context. The fundamental issue is I have no idea if op is writing a disengious story. It’s only his description, you can make most things sound bad on the internet.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

That’s not the issue. Context. The fundamental issue is I have no idea if op is writing a disengious story. It’s only his description, you can make most things sound bad on the internet.

I see, sure. I read through the drama post on the LRS Facebook group. Rope Solo McDrillFace definitely decided he was just going to walk up to someone else's route and drill a ground anchor due to astonishing levels of laziness as a rope soloist. 

If a route is runout or has a really high first or second bolt or something like that then the series anchor can be a real pain in the ass, but for 90% of sport routes it works beautifully, and the word on the street is that Europe tends to be more well bolted than the US so it might even be a higher percentage of routes that take a series anchor well where Drilly McDrillerson lives. 

J Ewrote:

This scenario popped up in the LRS FB group and seeing as it’s something that affects everyone, I wanted to bring the discussion here to see if maybe I’m in the wrong.

Situation: 

At a sport crag, a soloist drilled a temporary ground Anchor on a route he did not develop. After removal of the temporary bolts, he did not fill the holes he drilled, but left them as is.

my opinion: 

- this is blatantly unethical for a few reasons. Firstly, adding bolts to any developers route without permission is a no no, even if they’re not part of the climbing.

- secondly, there’s always an alternative way to build a ground anchor that doesn’t involve drilling the rock (natural anchors, ground stakes, stick clipping, using bolt 1 from a neighboring climb, etc)

-thirdly, it’s a blatant violation of the very basic tenant of LNT. Leaving drill holes without at least taking the effort to fill them in with epoxy and rock dust is unsightly and inconsiderate. Creating a permanent ground Anchor would be preferable since at least anyone can benefit from that

I’ve been called a fanatic over these opinions, I’m interested in what the Climbing  community at large thinks

HA! “Developers” don’t like it when someone else drills holes in their rock?

Does it change the climb? No. The rock is already been desecrated with steel, sport climbers had this coming.

Removable bolts, couple of new holes at the base of an existing pitch - really depends on the area and the methods commonly deployed there. Somtimes I'd probably be ok with it, many others - not.

It used to be normal to find holes at the base lots of spurt crags from "developers" who bolted on lead. I dont get the big deal 

M Mwrote:

It used to be normal to find holes at the base lots of spurt crags from "developers" who bolted on lead. I dont get the big deal 

key phrase: Used to be. With all the equipment, techniques, and information available to us in the modern day it doesn't make sense to drill holes in the rock for an anchor you're going to use for a few hours.

Drilling holes for the sole purpose of LRSing is totally unnecessary as Ricky pointed out. 99.99% of the time a natural anchor or an anchor utilizing the existing bolts can be used. Vacant drill holes are unsightly and a violation of LNT. Just like its a dick move to not cover up your campfire or pack out your trash. Except it's worse becuase it's permanent defacement of the rock. 

I guess that actual pictures of these specific climbs and their natural anchors would be good for swaying opinions. I dont LRS and never will but have no problems seeing ground anchors at any sport area. 

maybe it was a gym climber with a drill who wanted to have floor anchors for his 90lb girlfriend like many gyms have. RBs certainly are way more LNT than bolts and hangers.

M Mwrote:

I guess that actual pictures of these specific climbs and their natural anchors would be good for swaying opinions. I dont LRS and never will but have no problems seeing ground anchors at any sport area. 

maybe it was a gym climber with a drill who wanted to have floor anchors for his 90lb girlfriend like many gyms have. RBs certainly are way more LNT than bolts and hangers.

Yes, RBs are more LNT on a very surface level, but bolts (and ground anchors) have utility for anyone at the crag. They can be used for very large weight difference, rope soloing, anchor building/cleaning practice, multipitch practice, etc.

Holes left in the rock from a soloist drilling a temporary anchor serve no purpose for anyone at all except the soloist, who many never return but has left a permanent mark on the rock. IMO There's a reason restrictions are tightening on climbers everywhere, and actions like this certainly won't help.

Besides, if I had spent heaps of money on hardware and tons of time developing a route and some dope came and put holes in the bottom of it, I would be... unhappy

J Ewrote:

Yes, RBs are more LNT on a very surface level, but bolts (and ground anchors) have utility for anyone at the crag. They can be used for very large weight difference, rope soloing, anchor building/cleaning practice, multipitch practice, etc.

Holes left in the rock from a soloist drilling a temporary anchor serve no purpose for anyone at all except the soloist, who many never return but has left a permanent mark on the rock. IMO There's a reason restrictions are tightening on climbers everywhere, and actions like this certainly won't help.

Besides, if I had spent heaps of money on hardware and tons of time developing a route and some dope came and put holes in the bottom of it, I would be... unhappy

Not me. Ten holes and shiny ss steel plus the hordes that follow the shiny ss steel is much farther from LNT than a hole or two at the base. I only get upset when a gym climber comes to fix a nice mixed route with more shiny ss steel. 

We really should not use the phrase LNT when "developing" nature.

And where is the  proof someone drilled for a one time use? That would be ridiculous if true.

M Mwrote:

Not me. Ten holes and shiny ss steel plus the hordes that follow the shiny ss steel is much farther from LNT than a hole or two at the base. I only get upset when a gym climber comes to fix a nice mixed route with more shiny ss steel. 

So what you're saying is you would be upset if more stainless steel was installed where it was unnecessary for stainless steel to be installed, like a route that has natural anchors? Because that's the argumnent that could be made against drilling holes in the rock when natural or pre-existing protection can be used 99.999% of the time.

We really should not use the phrase LNT when "developing" nature.

Now we're splitting hairs. Leave no trace, leave minimal trace, whatever. The point is that we should be minimizing our impact on our natural resources. When homeboy drills holes in the rock, those will never go away. Not in our lifetimes. Yes, the same is true of steel hangers, but again, at least those provide utility for any climber and not just the one dude.

And where is the  proof someone drilled for a one time use? That would be ridiculous if true.

Huh? He could use it every day for the rest of his life. Doesn't make a difference

M Mwrote:

And where is the  proof someone drilled for a one time use? That would be ridiculous if true.

The person in question said this is what they did in their facebook post.  Pretty ridiculous in my book.

Some of you are missing the point here.  Yea it's a small issue, but it's still an issue.

Would you pound a sixer and leave the cans below a climb? Obviously not. What if you had a couple starburst and flicked the wrappers on the ground? The argument some of you are making is "It's a small piece of trash, who cares. There's already trash here from other sources". Clearly the right thing to do is put the wrapper in your pocket and throw it away later. It's not about the magnitude of the transgression, it's the fact that it's a net negative when it would be nearly as convenient to do things differently in a way that isn't a net negative.

Is it a huge issue worth gnashing your teeth over, probably not. But the issue was raised so it makes sense to call out the bad practice and educate everyone reading that better methods exist.

In case nobody has noticed, there’s not a lot of morals or ethics around anymore. The climbing community probably has more ethics than 90% of the rest of the population. on top of that most people feel entitled , so they do what they want. And then they post on Facebook or wherever to boost their puny little ego. But IMHO I think it’s small potatoes compared to the rest of the BS that the human race is doing.

Ricky Harlinewrote:

I see, sure. I read through the drama post on the LRS Facebook group. Rope Solo McDrillFace definitely decided he was just going to walk up to someone else's route and drill a ground anchor due to astonishing levels of laziness as a rope soloist. 

If a route is runout or has a really high first or second bolt or something like that then the series anchor can be a real pain in the ass, but for 90% of sport routes it works beautifully, and the word on the street is that Europe tends to be more well bolted than the US so it might even be a higher percentage of routes that take a series anchor well where Drilly McDrillerson lives. 

Where's the drama this has no comments?

Lol, all my prophecies are coming true!

Adam Rwrote:

Where's the drama this has no comments?

Looks like Yann disabled new comments but I'm still seeing all the old comments. Do you not see them? Not sure how FB groups and permissions and all that works so I don't know what's going on, but I'm definitely looking at them right now.