Is moderate climbing 'climbed out'?

If I read your post correctly you're asking if previously developed areas are previously developed? Because, as Kevin and Guy noted above, here in CA, the most populous state in the USA, there's ENDLESS opportunities for new route development both out in the desert and in the Sierra. But you're unlikely to find a "undeveloped" new moderate just lurking un-noticed at Hidden Valley in J-tree or right next to Royal Arches in the Yosemite Valley. 

The chance of a climb already being FAed AND the popularity of an existing climb are heavily based on 3 factors:

• How many people climb in that area (way more chance of finding an FA in say Hetch Hetchy than Yosemite Valley).
• The quality of the climb (Snake Dike gets a lot of traffic even with a long approach because it's a classic for it's rating, there's a ton of obscurities that get almost no traffic in Yosemite)
• The length of the approach (inverse relationship with the chance of a climb being done and busy).

As mentioned what defines a 'heinous' approach. Hiking uphill for 4 hours to get to one climb would qualify. But what about a situation where there's quality crags with a 5 minute approach. And there's another crag of equal quality nearby with a 30 minute approach. I certainly wouldn't say a 30 minute approach is heinous, but it's enough to cut traffic by 80% of more and have a good chance of quality FAs left.

As Camdon Kay said, City of Rocks/Castle Rock has had a steady trickle of new stuff going in, all along, including easier stuff. That will likely continue there, at any grade, as it's a slow process getting routes approved.

The real excitement will be when the newly acquired large parcel of land gets rolling! 

Personally, if I see a combined hardware gofundme for that, with the right names attached, well, I'm in for sure! 

Best, Helen

Honestly I feel like MattH is just taking the piss on this one. I feel like MOST of the newly developed routes (in my area at least) are moderate and at least 2 stars. Must be raining somewhere.

Too far from the car these days is my take on the lack of classic development, that and just keeping crags on the DL is the best way to keep all the gym-bro-man-buns from ruining the place.

Then you just have drill happy folks (gym-bro-man-buns?)who don't think routes through at all before drilling, we've all climbed those routes.

I'd say most places that cater to what OP is looking for are probably "climbed out".  I'm okay with that.  The majority of people are going to be too lazy to do any of the following to find a new spot to scratch that itch:

• Hike farther
• Become friends with local developers
• Research in general
• Learn a new style/rock type of climbing
• Go back to a place after a bad experience
• Develop it themselves 

California…. MattH. The Southern Sierra has entire areas, chuck full of potential, with new roots, of all stripes going up (down).

This is so true! Ridiculous quantities of unclimbed rock in the Southern Sierra. San Diego County still has lots, and the Gran Trono Blanco area in Baja California also

MattHwrote:

When was the last time a good 5.8-5.11 went up in your area that didn't involve a previously closed crag being opened to the public? Is that the only way for new (high quality) moderate climbing to be developed/discovered? It seems the only new routes under 5.12 that I see are of 3 forms:

- mediocre climbs that were either previously deemed too low quality to develop, or the entire cliff was overlooked due to an unappealing nature (too slabby, too flaky, too manky, too short, too ledgy, etc)

- routes/areas that are so heinous to get to that nobody has bothered in the past to develop them (or, at least, to record them). Maybe the route is ok but the ROI on getting there just isn't worth it (or, wasn't worth it when the good crags were less crowded and polished)

- routes/areas that were previously closed to climbing but are now openly published

If not, prove me wrong: what's the best climb in your area that's been put up in the last 2-3 years on a cliff that didn't just become publicly available?

Mostly yes, it’s all climbed out and most of the rock being mentioned isn’t worth the effort. People just have such a strong FA fever that they put the blinders on to reality

That said, looking between the lines at established crags and fixing forgotten lines is worth some time.

Mostly yes, it’s all climbed out and most of the rock being mentioned isn’t worth the effort. People just have such a strong FA fever that they put the blinders on to reality

Hah! Talk about blind to reality!

That said, looking between the lines at established crags and fixing forgotten lines is worth some time.

And this? Squeeze jobs at popular areas trump classic routes on remote crags?

Maybe you’re joking…probably best that the masses join the cult

Kevin Worrallwrote:

Hah! Talk about blind to reality!

And this? Squeeze jobs at popular areas trump classic routes on remote crags?

Maybe you’re joking…probably best that the masses join the cult.

I only wish I could wallow in mediocrity.

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Can't comment on elsewhere but NorCal has many lifetimes of excellent moderates to be put up, and indeed some of them are going up. 

Thought of you as soon as I saw a this thread, more 5.8 out there than anyone can imagine! 

I think it is very location-dependent. In US land ownership/access can complicate things, but even so, until the chipping debacle in TenSleep a couple of years ago, there was lots of new development happening, including moderates. Areas around the RRG are seeing a ton of new bolting, etc  

And overseas, e.g. a place like Kalymnos has more rock than all their active developers could bolt, bolting as fast as they do. Their issue is time, and money for bolts, not lack of rock. A new guidebook coming out every 4-5 years, with 100s for routes added, most of turn moderates. 

Lena chitawrote:

I think it is very location-dependent. In US land ownership/access can complicate things, but even so, until the chipping debacle in TenSleep a couple of years ago, there was lots of new development happening, including moderates. Areas around the RRG are seeing a ton of new bolting, etc  

And overseas, e.g. a place like Kalymnos has more rock than all their active developers could bolt, bolting as fast as they do. Their issue is time, and money for bolts, not lack of rock. A new guidebook coming out every 4-5 years, with 100s for routes added, most of turn moderates. 

I actually had the RRG in mind as a glaring counterexample when I posted.

It's a bummer to think about what climbing 5.10 in the front range will look like in 15-20 years (caked in chalk, polished, and with elbow-to-elbow crowds), but those 'endless potential' spots excite me, so I was curious to hear peoples' experience that live in such areas.  

I started climbing in the RRG and it's always been a bit mind-blowing to see that there are always new crags being discovered and fresh new routes to try whenever I go back, but I didn't really know anywhere else with the same dynamic (in the US at least). Yeah, you can always drive/hike farther (and the resulting solitude can make those climbs particularly special), but it's undeniably nice to also have quick-access climbing of high quality (and boy, the 5.10/11s at the RRG are about as high quality as sport climbing gets at that grade), so it's reassuring to know that such spots exist.

It's interesting to hear California mentioned by so many - I'd known that there was underdeveloped potential in the unpopulated northern reaches, but I'm pretty surprised that, climbing population density being what it is, there's so much unclimbed stuff in the rest of the state. 

MattHwrote:

It's interesting to hear California mentioned by so many - I'd known that there was underdeveloped potential in the unpopulated northern reaches, but I'm pretty surprised that, climbing population density being what it is, there's so much unclimbed stuff in the rest of the state. 

I’ve been climbing in the Owen’s River Gorge forever and 10 years ago you might have thought all the good potential had been developed  but in that time, route developers have found some real gold, not just good but great by Gorge standards. Erik Wolfe and Dan MCDevitt have developed a bunch of good/great routes in the 5.11-5.8 range there.  Here is one example but in only a few years ago:

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/118172006/badda-bing-badda-boom

Here’s another one that is super fun put in 5 years ago:

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/117081240/trail-blazer

Tons of stuff in Pine creek: 

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/113218752/horn-blended

Fantastic 5.9 route put in by Tai and Mary DeVore 7 years ago. 21 bolts about 230 feet continuous gorgeous edging  everything up there, same vintage is really good.

Really the list is way, way too long to list every one. Many Excellent routes in that grade have gone up in the last 5-7 years in Rock Creek, Pine Creek and the Gorge. 

Sorry Matt, I did not notice your requirment of 2-3 years.  Less than ten seems recent to me.  Here is a wall that was developed about 7 years ago but has a three star and a 4 star route added in 2020:

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/112193374/land-o-lakes

I spend a lot of time travelling but near my house in southern CA, my closest local crags are Fairview Mtn and New Jack City. Both about 1.5 hrs for me, about 2 hrs from LA.

On Faiview Mtn proper, tons of good routes have gone in in recent years. At the bottom of the hill, developers(mostly Reed Ames) have put in some quite good routes in the past 2 years. For example:

https://www.mountainproject.com/area/120028011/friendly-faces

At New Jack City, most of the Pipeline Pass area has been developed in the last 2 years.  There are lots of good moderates there, some very good.  

https://www.mountainproject.com/area/120647092/pipeline-pass

There is just so much rock out here. I wish I had another 2 lifetimes. 

Old lady Hwrote:

The real excitement will be when the newly acquired large parcel of land gets rolling! 

Which newly acquired parcel is this?

bryans wrote:

It depends (obviously) on where you are. A developed area can lie stagnant and seemingly "climbed out," then one individual comes along and decide to grid bolt it, bolt the established cracks, claim FAs of link-ups that consist of 1-2 new bolts (due to grid bolting), install perma draws everywehre, and voila! "new" routes. Ahistorical newer climbers with no ethical awareness then think recreating an outdoor gym on a wall mainly developed in the 70s-90s is acceptable, and as time goes by, maybe it will be. If we are calling 5.11 "moderate" then a bunch of "new moderates" went up here.

https://www.mountainproject.com/area/108302910/bat-wall

On the other hand, motivated individuals also fill in the blanks on roadside walls that for whatever reason just were left alone despite short approaches, like this one. I give Topher credit/blame for having the vision to simply start developing, and (full disclosure) inviting others like me to join him. Anyone could have done what he did, at any point, but they just didn't. It's that simple. Most people just are not motivated to go develop, as it's a lot of time, work and money:

https://www.mountainproject.com/area/111087716/northwest-face

My point is that while developers make up at most 1 out of every 100 or even 1,000 climbers out there, those developers have an incredibly disproportionate impact on what people get to climb. 

  

 The irony of your comment Bryan is that this individual actually DID put up arguably the absolute best 5.10 sport climb in the entire Portland Metro: Dark Arts (aka: Stark Arts).  Which is a perfect rebuttal to the OP's assertion.  Dark Arts is at the most popular wall in large urban area.  It's 5.10.  It was hiding in plain sight. It was established in 2018 at a cliff that was primarily developed in the 1980s, 1990s.  Of top climbs for Portland Metro, Dark Arts is the highest rated 5.10 at 3.6 of 4 stars (compared to 3.3, 3.1, 3.0, 2.6)

dark arts

fossilwrote:

Which newly acquired parcel is this?

They got a big chunk of land sorta between/above Castle and the highest stuff across from bread loaves. Bingham hiked it right away, and said there's potential there. Park wants to work on better access, etc, so ut might be awhile, but it's still nice! Most people have no idea what a complicated jigsaw puzzle of land ownership exists there. Every federal lands agency there is (except the Bureau of Reclamation, but only because there's nothing big enough for hydro   ), the state of Idaho, and private landowners. There's also cattle leases to consider for the public parcels. 

There's probably a thread on here somewhere with details, if not, then on Facebook.

The Parks people have been working super hard to try and get ahead of our huge population increases "locally" (Idaho and Utah), which was compounded by the pandemic induced difficulties of everybody and their dog deciding to recreate outdoors all of a sudden. So, anyone who cares about the place? Definitely let them know they're appreciated!

Best, Helen

I'm sure you can find classic moderate routes in jtree that haven't seen a FA.  Just gotta walk more than 200 yards.