Trad vs sport

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Weird I didn’t take you as someone into incest with your own kid but I suppose that is traditional from the caveman era.

From my experience, he's just saying "you think you're stressed now, just wait..." But, sounds like you have your own serious issue to deal with. You're a sicko... 

ryan climbs sometimes wrote:

https://www.tomhiggins.net/index.php/style-commentaries/13-tricksters-and-traditionalists?showall=1

congratulations john! 

and just cause 

https://www.tomhiggins.net/index.php/style-commentaries/32-first-ascents-customs-trad-pre-mid-70-s-vs-sport

I think the funniest thing about the top article is talking about how there are few first ascent opportunities in Yosemite... Lol

I also find the bow vs gun argument very amusing. Real TRAD is only done with one hand because that would make it harder and TRAD is HARD. 

John Clarkwrote:

Changing focus slightly. Addressing this to Kevin and the more Traditionalist commenters. If someone were to repeat a route, not clipping any established fixed pro and not weighting rope or gear (i.e. no aid), would they be within their rights to place protection bolts from stances?

I am approaching this from the view of the rock not belonging to anyone. If later parties wanted to protect their individual ascent with a more permanent style of pro, would that violate the route or would that merely be an evolution of the route, since the style would still be as pure as the FA (assuming the FA was not done free solo).

This is called “retro-development”.

Tradibanwrote:

This is called “retro-development”.

Groovy.

and KW, I have read tricksters and traditionalists a couple times in arguing with you on here. You may be right with the mellowing, cause this dude is tuckering me out.

Connor, so if i took viagra before climbing Traditionally, it would be harder?

John Clarkwrote:

Groovy.

and KW, I have read tricksters and traditionalists a couple times in arguing with you on here. You may be right with the mellowing, cause this dude is tuckering me out.

Connor, so if i took viagra before climbing Traditionally, it would be harder?

I'm already rock hard from the rock hard podcast #notanad

Connor, so if i took viagra before climbing Traditionally, it would be harder?

You’re already in a heap o trouble - I’d recommend saltpeter instead of viagra

thomas elliswrote:

For the current masses:

Trad = gear

Sport = bolts

Before sport climbing was ever coined, we (my family) called it just face climbing. The bolts were put in on ascent. Does that still make it a sport climb? Ex. shelf is definetly pure sport by the way routes were put up, but areas like Suicide Tahqits (sp) were like very killer routes. I dont really mind the word sport climbing, just it was diff before the gyms.

Kevin Worrallwrote:

You’re already in a heap o trouble - I’d recommend saltpeter instead of viagra

Pass, used to shovel tons of that a day at an old fertilizer plant job I had when the auger broke.

charles, welcome to the conversation, you’re a couple weeks and a few pages behind

Well shat at least I'm back on my meds ;)

The definition of "soul" is entirely up to the individual.

Believe it or not, I didn't post this to create controversy, it was more of a muse, sort of thinking out loud, but it seems I stirred the hornets nest. The gray area here is vast, so there are bound to be passionate arguments both ways. The topic aside, there are some interesting aspects of human nature on display here. Those who have formed an opinion of me based solely on my post, those chastise others for inflexibility while they are guilty of the same thing, those who belittle the use of a computer from their computer, those who automatically rain down scorn on someone who dares to contradict their paradigm, but one of the most interesting are those who aggressively, emphatically almost hysterically claim they dont care....Conversation is good, but one sided conversation is a diatribe. Listen, consider, understand, then reply

It's all rather interesting to me as a non-American to read about it from your perspective. Things over here in the UK are more obviously clear cut when it comes to trad vs sport, down to our different climbing history etc. 

The strict no bolts ethic for many areas/types of climbing means the bolts=sport thing is pretty much true here (*). 

That sport climbing didn't 'evolve' here but was imported as an establishid concept from Europe (mainland that is   ).

Even the term 'trad climbing', appears to me, to be an import. When I started in the 90's if you said climbing you meant 'trad' and would otherwise specify sport climbing. Only relativly recently do people regulaly specify trad climbing, I blame youtube!

Probably also revevent that aid climbing has never been as big a deal here.

As we can rely on bolts=sport, gear=trad we don't have to get hung up on what traditonal means. Which is just as well as our climbing history is so long just about everything is traditional, top roping gritstone before trying to lead (which often meant solo trailing a rope!) goes back well over a hundred years. In fact if someone talks about using traditional methods its probably a tongue in cheek reference to sketchy stuff like standing on your partner's head.

* Back in my slatehead days I would climb routes with a bolt here and there (usually dangerously positioned), we just called this semi-bolted.

My impression of Britain is that it lacks the big slab and face climbs that the US has, particularly in Calif. If I’m not mistaken, Neil, the slate you mentioned is the majority of slab climbing in the UK, and from photos I’ve seen, the routes are rarely more than 70 meters.

I’m curious as to how bolt protected routes on less than vertical slab evolved there, as in did first ascenders use hooks to place bolts as things got steeper, as we did here? Did the lads just run it out? Or is this where headpointing was employed?

Good point Kevin, we don’t have any ‘big walls’.

I’m a big supporter of our bolt free ethic on mountain crags and sea cliffs, but I put it more down to quirks of history and geography than moral superiority

Edit: weird I wrote a long load of stuff answering your questions that did appear, will try again later.

There are some areas of extensive, multi-pitch slabs in the UK, mostly in Scotland. The Etive Slabs near Ben Nevis are the most well-known example. To my knowledge there are no bolts there, just huge runouts on very limited hand-placed gear ( and maybe the occasional ancient piton).

"What you're allowed to do depends on where you are" Jerry Moffatt

"What you're allowed to do depends on where you are" Jerry Moffatt

And who you are. Jerry manufactured a hold with glue on his Midnight Lightning variation.

Bridwell also left many Thank Bridwell Holds in his wake.

Kevin Worrallwrote:...

I’m curious as to how bolt protected routes on less than vertical slab evolved there, as in did first ascenders use hooks to place bolts as things got steeper, as we did here? Did the lads just run it out? Or is this where headpointing was employed?

Placing bolts on lead never really became a thing here, a few isolated incidents only. I could be very wrong here but I think the first was in the 60's when Pete Crews placed one on The Boldest at Cloggy (https://www.mountainproject.com/area/106256023/clogwyn-dur-arddu) but it was chopped 970s I think). However these were the exceptions. The no bolts on mountain crags or sea cliffs really is no bolts if there's no gear than there is no gear, can lead to some thought provoking belay's as it includes no bolted belays. The big 'fixed gear debate' centred around pegs, it still does as whilst placing pegs is now very much considered a no-no there are a lot of sketchy ancient pegs still being clipped. Some interesting discusions going on about what to do about potentially replacing them in a way that is sustainable and in keeping with the adventurous nature of the routes at places like Gogarth (https://www.mountainproject.com/area/106229081/gogarth).

The above is based on my limited understanding