When do you decide to "say something" to another party/person?

Climb Onwrote:

Hey maybe don’t hold this one woman’s response against the rest of us? If you see me doing something sketch just tell me.

Agreed that if it’s way after the fact (like a photo) that private is best. 

Unfortunately my experience mirrors AV's.  If it's a woman or group of women, I just keep my mouth shut anymore.

Climb Onwrote:

Hey maybe don’t hold this one woman’s response against the rest of us? If you see me doing something sketch just tell me.

You've pointed out something for everyone, not just women.   As you point out above, there comes a time when you're competent enough to realize you don't know everything, and will take advice or suggestions openly, aka Consciously Incompetent.

 However, so many people are Unconscious Incompetents,

"1. Unconscious incompetence

This is the stage where you don’t yet know the degree of your incompetence. In other words, you don’t know what you don’t know. This stage is generally the most challenging, as you are unconscious of the fact that there are areas that need improvement or things you need to learn. People in this stage can’t recognize problems as they occur, so they generally don’t ask for help."

And not only do they not ask for help but forcefully reject it, as so many of the examples above describe.  

Climb Onwrote:

Hey maybe don’t hold this one woman’s response against the rest of us? If you see me doing something sketch just tell me.

Agreed that if it’s way after the fact (like a photo) that private is best. 

That is kind of a tough one - I think many of us have experienced mansplaining (I actually hate this term) frequently so might be hypersensitive. That’s not everyone’s experience.reaction of course, but I can certainly appreciate where AV is coming from. I guess use caution and avoid lecturing regardless of the gender difference? Ask permission to provide information? Unless of course injury/death are imminent - then act first explain later. 

Anyone have good examples for climbers or climber actions that would fit well in the description of the 4 stages of competence? I'm kinda bored so half-ass making a small poster for the shop. Bonus points if you have good drawings or very clear photos of these situations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence

IE
Unconscious incompetence: Trying to climb with hardware store rope, keychain carabiners, friend just holding the rope, choss, no helmets, no shoes, no clue.
Conscious incompetence: Climber reaches the top and is asked to clean and lower or / rap. Climber outright states that they are sure they don't know enough to do that safely and asks to be lowered so someone else can go up and do it and then teach them how to do it too.
Conscious competence: Conceptually knows how to build a trad anchor, but takes 30 minutes.
Unconscious competence: Your leader already built an anchor and put you on belay before you realized they had stopped climbing.

Not quite the same thing, but have you ever seen parties that have so much “safety” that it’s dangerous? When I lived in the Northwest, I’d occasionally bump into people from the Mazamas Climbing Club. When I’d spot the tell tale signs, I’d always ask, “Are you with the Mazamas?” I enjoyed a 100% accuracy rate.

The telltale signs: Everyone in the party has at least three very long cordalettes (often more. I’ve counted 6 on one harness). Often parties of 3 or more. Very loud, continuous spray. Systems and anchors that were impressively complicated. Harnesses laden with an incredible amount of gear. Frequent mid-route colossal clusters on multi-pitch trad lines.

I rarely said anything to these expeditions because it was unlikely anyone would get hurt, even if it might take 12 hours to drag the show up 3 pitches of 5.6.

E MuuDwrote:

Unfortunately my experience mirrors AV's.  If it's a woman or group of women, I just keep my mouth shut anymore.

Lets be real, a woman approaching a major sausage festival with technical advice would be taken the same way.

S Saunderswrote:

Not quite the same thing, but have you ever seen parties that have so much “safety” that it’s dangerous? When I lived in the Northwest, I’d occasionally bump into people from the Mazamas Climbing Club. When I’d spot the tell tale signs, I’d always ask, “Are you with the Mazamas?” I enjoyed a 100% accuracy rate.

The telltale signs: Everyone in the party has at least three very long cordalettes (often more. I’ve counted 6 on one harness). Often parties of 3 or more. Very loud, continuous spray. Systems and anchors that were impressively complicated. Harnesses laden with an incredible amount of gear. Frequent mid-route colossal clusters on multi-pitch trad lines.

I rarely said anything to these expeditions because it was unlikely anyone would get hurt, even if it might take 12 hours to drag the show up 3 pitches of 5.6.

Yes I have, the Gunks stands out in memories of the mega safety oriented/prepared climbers. From TRs with 5-6 bomber placements(including a big tree) perfectly equalized at the anchor to climbers with triple racks, PAS, and multiple cordalettes going up a 5.4 pitch. I can imagine the mid route clusters for sure!

S Saunderswrote:

Not quite the same thing, but have you ever seen parties that have so much “safety” that it’s dangerous? When I lived in the Northwest, I’d occasionally bump into people from the Mazamas Climbing Club. When I’d spot the tell tale signs, I’d always ask, “Are you with the Mazamas?” I enjoyed a 100% accuracy rate.

The telltale signs: Everyone in the party has at least three very long cordalettes (often more. I’ve counted 6 on one harness). Often parties of 3 or more. Very loud, continuous spray. Systems and anchors that were impressively complicated. Harnesses laden with an incredible amount of gear. Frequent mid-route colossal clusters on multi-pitch trad lines.

I rarely said anything to these expeditions because it was unlikely anyone would get hurt, even if it might take 12 hours to drag the show up 3 pitches of 5.6.

Yes I have, the Gunks stands out in memories of the mega safety oriented/prepared climbers. From TRs with 5-6 bomber placements(including a big tree) perfectly equalized at the anchor to climbers with triple racks, PAS, and multiple cordalettes going up a 5.4 pitch. I can imagine the mid route clusters for sure!

Has anyone ever had a heart-to-heart with a free soloist about their behavior?

Tradibanwrote:

Has anyone ever had a heart-to-heart with a free soloist about their behavior?

No, I just say "Hey man, don't fall on me." when they pass /s

Tradibanwrote:

Has anyone ever had a heart-to-heart with a free soloist about their behavior?

No but I'll always ask them a question like "do you want to tie in and climb with us?"

M Mwrote:

No but I'll always ask them a question like "do you want to tie in and climb with us?"

Have you ever had any takers?

Tim Stichwrote:

Not that proud, but I ended up waiting until a guy climbed up the start of Bob's Buttress Crack (5.9) on Grey Rock in Garden of the Gods. We were watching him and this much younger girl set up, but didn't really notice his pro, or lack of it. The guy had no nuts, no cams, no real trad gear at all it turned out. He had some webbing that he tied water knots in and planned to protect the route in the style of Czech climbers with their monkey fists. But he had zero monkey fists, only water knots in some 1/2 inch and inch webbing. Guy get up about twenty feet, gets a half inch knot in a slot, Elvis legs it, and pitches off. His knot held. When he came down, shaking, I suggested he hit the used climbing gear stores and pick up some nuts at the very least. 

That's a good one to see shenanigans on for some reason.  My daughter and I were climbing nearby and happened to see (and hear) a climber at somewhere around the same spot (folks do like to get stuck at that first little obstacle) and his wild cursing and shaky voice reassurances to his belayer. Both of us were just watching to see what would happen next and, sure enough, in the midst of trying to place a nut, he dumps all the rest of his nuts off his carabiner.  Needless to say, the shaky voice and loud cursing intensified and we decided we'd be better to just move along.

Rope Byrnewrote:

….  Needless to say, the shaky voice and loud cursing intensified and we decided we'd be better to just move along.

I don’t understand the “move along” thinking.  These are the perfect candidates to practice and refine your more obscure first aid techniques and interventions.   Like resuscitative proctoclysis for remote TBI treatments.  These people are the potential “practice pool” before you need to do it for realsies on a loved one.  Don’t turn a blind eye. 

Mark Pilatewrote:

I don’t understand the “move along” thinking.  These are the perfect candidates to practice and refine your more obscure first aid techniques and interventions.   Like resuscitative proctoclysis for remote TBI treatments.  These people are the potential “practice pool” before you need to do it for realsies on a loved one.  Don’t turn a blind eye. 

No blind eye being turned, just moving away a little bit to let people do their struggling without an audience. That is the reason for the "move along" thinking: my intervention and "helpful" suggestions will not always be as useful as I may think they are. Also, this location that I'm discussing is far from a remote area.

I'll spray safety beta all over everyone every time everywhere damnit!

M Mwrote:

I'll spray safety beta all over everyone every time everywhere damnit!

M Mwrote:

I'll spray safety beta all over everyone every time everywhere damnit!

We’re you there one that ran up to save us the other day?  Thank you so much.  You alerted us that our rope was twisted, our top rope… in the gym.  You saved our lives.  Thanks Karen. 

Greg Dwrote:

We’re you there one that ran up to save us the other day?  Thank you so much.  You alerted us that our rope was twisted, our top rope… in the gym.  You saved our lives.  Thanks Karen. 

A TWIST IN THE ROPE CAN CAUSE VERY DANGEROUS FRICTION!!!

One time I was at a rap station, that was level with the end of the first pitch of a popular 5.3 intro lead. The leader had put a sling around the logical part of the tree, and was setting up their belay for the second. I didn't have a great view of what they were doing, but someone on a line on the other side was watching intently.

Right after they called "on belay" to their second, the other person intervened - "NO YOU ARE NOT, DON'T CLIMB" - the leader had set up their ATC as a top belay... without using the nose. It was literally just a pulley, and because it was above the head of the belayer... there was zero chance they could have arrested a fall.

I appreciate that they gave the person every chance to test their system and realize that it was wrong... but also didn't give them the chance to kill their friend.