When do you decide to "say something" to another party/person?

When I see somebody z-clipping I always speak up.

JaredGwrote:

When I see somebody z-clipping I always speak up.

No need, they will figure it out pretty quick.

For the first time in a very long time I said something to a belayer in the gym. The leader clipped the first draw from their right while belayer was on the left with the rope going behind the leader. The belayer made no effort to properly manage the rope. Had the leader fallen in the first 10-15 feet or so they most likely would have been flipped over. More over enough rope was out landed on the ground.

The belayer acknowledged the mistake and said "thanks good catch."

Whenever I'm at Bruise Brothers

Oops! This post will self-delete in a few minutes.

I arrived at the second pitch belay of a Red Rock route when the last person of a party of three started climbing the second pitch on a fixed line.  His partners had fixed a rope for him on a very traversing second pitch without any directional gear.  He started climbing using just a single jumar as his top rope solo device.  I saw him tie a back up knot after 20ft and breathed a big sigh of relief.  But instead of clipping into the knot with a locker on his belay loop he just dropped it and let it hang below him on the rope.  His reasoning, I determined, was that if his jumar started sliding down the rope in the event of a fall, the knot would stop him.  At this point I yelled up to him that he should clip into the knot because the jumar will just detach from the rope if something goes wrong, especially on a big traverse (Multiple deaths have occurred due to jumars coming off the rope).  He told me to "mind my own business, he knew what he was doing".  He wasn't looking super solid either.  He tied another back up knot but, again, didn't clip into it he just let it hang on the rope.  I told him to please clip into the rope because his jumar could detach in the event of a fall.  He said that was "impossible" and then told me to "shut the fuck up".  I did what I was told.  I had tried but there was nothing more to say or do.  He didn't die but I sure got the stink eye when I arrived at the next belay.  

I have a hard time not saying something to people who are wearing wedding bands, usually dudes, in the rock gym. Google "ring avulsion" or "de-gloving". I keep it so others can't hear, if they care they care if they don't they don't.

Jeff Gwrote:

<snip>  He told me to "mind my own business, he knew what he was doing".  He wasn't looking super solid either.  He tied another back up knot but, again, didn't clip into it he just let it hang on the rope.  I told him to please clip into the rope because his jumar could detach in the event of a fall.  He said that was "impossible" and then told me to "shut the fuck up".  I did what I was told.  I had tried but there was nothing more to say or do.  

Yup.  I've heard those exact words too many times.   So, like you, I'm doing what I was told.  And if they fuck-up I'll mind my own business then, too.

Jeff Gwrote:

 He said that was "impossible" and then told me to "shut the fuck up".  I did what I was told.  I had tried but there was nothing more to say or do.  He didn't die but I sure got the stink eye when I arrived at the next belay.  

When I had a better memory, part of the categorical knowledge was out of ANAM journals, and would have likely passed on the accident report details after arriving at the ledge. Sounds like it might not have helped in this case, but I do remember that one pitch of Tangerine Trip claiming multiple jumar fatalities...

When I butt in I tend to lead with "I wonder what would happen if...?" or "I'm worried that if _____ happens you might get hurt/die" can I tell you why?

Jeff Gwrote:

 …He told me to "mind my own business, he knew what he was doing". …

If he hadn’t tied the knots, I would’ve just erred on the assumption that he was willing to take the added risk for whatever reason.  The tying and dropping of multiple knots to dangle uselessly below is classic proof he didn’t have a clue.  

Today, cell phones are handy to more or less instantly confirm foolishness.  

and if you really feel like “out jerking” them, just “shut up” and film them with your cell phone.  It REALLY gets under their skin (at least that’s what I heard from a friend ;)

I always speak up. Usually in the form of questions to see how they justify their bad choice, this usually illuminates that they are informed of their stupidity, or if they're just ignorant/trying their best. If they are quite cognizant of the dumb shit they're doing I let it go. If its really something dangerous and they push back, I'll usually turn to their partner/friends and ask them the same question so hopefully it starts a discussion or they can roast the individual. This has worked quite well with newbs setting up TR anchors.

Example: Dude setting up a TR anchor next to me, clipped two bolts with a 120cm sling, and clipped both strands through the master carabiners(no twist for the SX). Dude was quite certain it was proper and wanted nothing of my "unsolicited advice".
I rapped down the climb next to him and told his crew at the base showed them what would happen if half the anchor let go. They all started yelling at him to let me help.
I offered to come back up, which he accepted with a slightly annoyed tone. I explained why it would have been bad had one side of the anchor let loose the way he had it, I then showed him the quad w/ 2 120cm slings, His tone changed. The anchor was now safe and him and his crew had a lovely day.
It turned into a small anchor lesson at the end of that day of climbing for him and his friends, beers were purchased as a thank you, everyone won that day.

I was climbing at the Ouray Ice Park during the ice festival last year and this gal wanted to take a run on a communal top rope.  The belayer went to check her tie in but it looked funny and the gal refused to let anyone look at it, saying “I am fine, don’t tell me how to tie my knot.”  A guy on a neighboring route who could see looked at us and shook his head, saying the knot was bad news. The belayer (who was a friend of mine) simply took her off belay and said, I am not comfortable belaying you. The gal was super pissed but neither of us were wanted to be part of a potential accident. If it is a life threat or risk of a bad accident, I speak up. If I have time, I like to ask questions first so it doesn’t feel confrontational. 

At a very busy cragging area in WA I watched a guy pitch off on TR, fall 15 ft. from a loose belay, and smash his head (he was wearing a helmet, thank god) on a boulder. The party "laughed it off," I was completely freaked out; I told them that that was one of the scariest, sketchiest things I'd ever witnessed climbing, you gotta have a tighter belay that close to the ground ... I was told to "mind my own fucking business."

One hour later, I get off an 80 ft. 5.8 wishing I'd brought triples in two or three sizes to make it a little more secure/cruisy, I told this to the person who was leading it next, I was told that they didn't need my advice and that, more or less, offering this suggestion for a 5.8 was the equivalent of calling them a weak climber. They took a double rack ... it took them about 45 minutes to climb the pitch. 

I think it's twofold: Most of me feels like I should just keep my mouth shut, mind my own business, it's not worth getting "involved" if these are the responses I get when I'm just trying to help people be safer/I'm scared for their safety ... the other part of me thinks (Knows?) that these people were just defensive in the "heat of the moment" and probably reflected on these incidents differently after they had time to think about it. 

When I started climbing I did something dumb, "some old guy" told me I'd done something dumb, I got pissy in the moment, kicked stones ... went home, looked it up on the internet, old guy was 100 percent right, I was 100 percent wrong ... I'm glad he spoke up -- I never made that sketchy mistake again and I learned to check my ego.

Hank Caylorwrote:

I have a hard time not saying something to people who are wearing wedding bands, usually dudes, in the rock gym. Google "ring avulsion" or "de-gloving". I keep it so others can't hear, if they care they care if they don't they don't.

I work in heavy industry, so a lot of cranes, steel ropes, hoists, etc. When checking a wire rope, it is advised to never have it run over your gloves as the rope can be moving at several feet per second. If there is a strand that is broken, it will cut through your glove, skin, tendons, and whatever else is in the way. So with that in mind, I met this dude several years ago with the most fucked up finger/hand I have ever seen. In his younger days, he was doing a rope inspection and having it run through his hand and then all of a sudden his glove was torn open. The crane operator stopped the crane, not because he was told to, but because he saw something stuck on the rope. Turns out a broken strand caught his wedding ring and, in an instant, sliced his palm open and de-gloved his finger with the ring attached. The thing the crane operator supposedly saw on the rope was the skin that had come off this dudes hand.

My party has witnessed the belayer yelling up at a new leader or climber in general trying to explain how to clean an anchor... We told them that we will lead up and help them and then did so. Not really giving the belayer a say in the situation. That worked.

I have walked up and given a backup belay to a very obviously brand new to climbing girl on a date with the guy leading above... on some of the most slippery central texas limestone. Quickly telling them to take rope in so they don't have rope pooling on the ground. I know I exchanged some words with them when the guy got down, but I can't really remember what and what their reaction was.

I have tied backup knots in the end of peoples ropes then told them after the fact. Even this past Thursday actually.

Most common I find to be belayers standing way too far back from the wall. "Hey, if he falls, you will get flung into this wall, right?"

A V wrote:

Why do you ask? 

Have you tried to read your last post?  There was a lot of splaining in there. I only made it a quarter of they way through. 

Any post on here more than a paragraph or two and I loose interest real quick or don't even read them.

A V wrote:

I try to only say things to people that I perceive as friends. Never publicly. Only privately. I have had people get upset with me over this. For example - I was recently called a mansplainer after making the following remarks over the course of a year:

• Person was going out on a -15F day in single boots. I was like - yo, that is pretty sketchy… if you don’t get frostbite this time, you’ll likely be more prone to it later (i.e. you only get so many days with extremely cold toes before you get frostbite on a climb where you otherwise shouldn’t have - i.e. like what happened to Anna Pfaff) . Later somebody else that day (in single boots) at that exact crag got frostbite. I was like… thats what I was saying... was met with a look of annoyance from her and the “people have different risk tolerances” response 
• Same person posts a picture of them clipping this completely whited out tat slung to a piton on a desert tower. I reply privately via DM and say, oof I don’t trust old tat like that (implying that they should girth their own sling to the piton and clip that instead - since the follow can just clean it and you don’t have to leave it or anything). Met with the same incredulity and response. 
• Same person posts a picture of them hanging on a sling clipped to the ferrule of their ice tool while (ostensibly) soloing with the stated purpose to take a rest due to calf fatigue (instead of quickly slamming in a screw). I reply privately via DM and mention a gear lab study that found ferrules will often fail at less than their stated rating of 1kn (which is already pretty low and easy to introduce via crampon slipping and the sling shock loading the ferrule - a little bit is all it would take). I told her that I was worried the ferrule could pop off the tool and that she would fall quite unexpectedly as a result. She gets really mad, says that I’m rude for implying that she weighs more than the 1kn rating. She then tells me that I’m a mansplainer and that I should mind my own business. She then quietly deletes the picture - ostensibly due to the fact that she realizes that I am likely correct in my assessment and doesn’t want to be perceived as sketchy by others. 

It makes me sad, because she’s not very receptive to discussions about these things - since she invariably sees these things through the lense of gender - and as a result of me trying to tactfully introduce some skepticism that these particular risks she was taking had very little, if literally zero reward - I lose a friend and am probably being slandered to others as an obnoxious “mansplainer” from here into eternity. 

I find this very hard, since I get really upset at deaths in the climbing community, and I like this person - so I overrode my typical rule of never saying anything to anybody (since people rarely take it well) and said something, in the hopes that it will be received gracefully - and it blew up in my face. Socializing is hard in situations like this… damned if you do, damned if you don’t. 

The lesson learned? Idk. Tread lightly. If you’re a guy and you’re talking to a woman, then good luck - you are honestly going to need it. Try your absolute hardest to not be condescending - since that gender dynamic will be in the front of her mind on her end. Or maybe ask one of her girlfriends to tell her - since she will maybe be more receptive to the female voice. If you are willing to risk your friendship and you value them as a person, then say something with as much grace and tact that you can muster - and maybe type and retype your message many times over in order to increase the odds that it won’t be taken poorly (though it entirely depends on the person - some people can drop their ego and take private pointers gracefully, some generally lack this capacity). If you can tell them alone, in person - in a nice, empathetic way - this is the absolute best way to deliver the information.

Again - never ever do it publicly if you like the person - that is way too risky and not worth it. Always privately. This is the correct and respectful channel to deliver esoteric safety information. 

For random people - my personal policy is that if I don’t know them, I don’t say anything. Not my problem - all I do is hope I’m not around for if or when they make a mistake and get hurt/die. 

People hate when they are wrong and somebody calls them out, lord don’t I know it!

Keep doing God’s work AV and ignore the hate from the insecure, you could save a life someday.

A V wrote:

The lesson learned? Idk. Tread lightly. If you’re a guy and you’re talking to a woman, then good luck - you are honestly going to need it. Try your absolute hardest to not be condescending - since that gender dynamic will be in the front of her mind on her end. 

Hey maybe don’t hold this one woman’s response against the rest of us? If you see me doing something sketch just tell me.

Agreed that if it’s way after the fact (like a photo) that private is best.