When do you decide to "say something" to another party/person?

Context: I was scrolling through Instagram and came across a post from a popular guiding service doing a little tech tip thing. I remember running into one of the guides in Munising last year for the Michigan Ice Fest, where he was climbing with two sponsored athletes that were in attendance. It was at Dryer Hose, which, being several days into the fest, was pretty picked out and relatively easy climbing. They were gearing up to lead, and a group of people gathered to watch. The first person to go climbed like 1/2 to 3/4 of the way up before putting a screw in, and then put like one more in before topping out and making an anchor and coming back down. When the climber got back down, she kind of got reamed out by some random bystander for not being safe or something. I want to say it was for being run-out, but I don't quite remember the details as to what was said, but long story short, it resulted in a person (I believe it was a new ice climber) saying something to the guide and his friends about safety. 

This interaction stands out to me because of the second-hand embarrassment for the person saying something to the guide and his friends. Not to say guides and/or athletes are perfect and free of criticism, but just watching how people behave, carry themselves, and climb; one can make judgements and assume that they're probably competent enough climbers (I realize that this has its own fallacies within it, but that isn't the point). I also knew that these three were "professionals" so whatever they were doing didn't stand out to me. But what if I didn't know that? Which led me to the question of when do you say something? Should something even be said?

I am not a super strong climber nor am I a guide, but I believe I have summited "Mount Stupid" and I'm on the slope of enlightenment on the Dunning-Kruger curve in the context of climbing. I think I know enough when to not say anything or to recognize things I am not familiar with. Maybe it is from my time in a trade apprenticeship or just who I am, but I think if I were to say something, like in the above example, it would be more of a question to maybe learn something new or for a new line of thinking.

Then the question came up, is it better to have concerned people willing to say something, even though they may be "wrong" (maybe ignorance) or is it better to just have people not say anything because it really isn't their business? Like getting unsolicited beta/critique or whatever. 

I err to the side of avoiding crowds and other climbers in general. I am loathe to butt-in. But if I see some noobish people doing dangerous things I will summon the nerve to speak to them about it, to at least prompt them to think through what they are doing - gently. 

If I see obviously expert people doing dangerous things I will mind my own business. And probably leave, too.

I step in a few situations:

• When failure and injury is imminent (only one strand of ATC threaded on a two strand rappel with no backup; set up rappel on wrong side of carabiner block)
• When someone makes a simple mistake they missed, but likely know how to do (missing a tie-in point, forget to clip auto-belay). Think "hey, your shoe's untied" but for climbing
• When children are involved
• When someone is being pressured into a situation they're not comfortable with (cleaning an anchor while being "taught" how to clean by someone yelling from the ground) 
• When someone makes multiple mistakes and doesn't understand they are mistakes. Some dude decked on Wall Street a year or so ago after a guide corrected him many times about things a competent climber should know (putting on a harness correctly, partner knowing how to belay, appropriate amount of slack while leading, back-clipping, leg behind rope)

Other than that, I don't really care if someone is doing something sub-optimal, different, or kinda dangerous. If we're hanging out for a while and they're struggling I may ask if they want advice, but I'm not going to spray about it. We all get to make our own choices. One of my choices may be to walk away so I don't have to witness the shit show. Think about the first time you saw someone TR solo. Or lead rope solo. Or hip/munter belay. Those things could seem super dangerous to someone who doesn't know what's up, but they're all within someone's risk tolerance. In your example, maybe those people were comfortable soloing that climb. On easy terrain I'll often get in a flow and suddenly remember I should place something (and I happen to be 40' runout). 

Bb Cc wrote:

I end up in great conversations by asking questions. The question method versus the scolding style seems more advancing. 

Good advice, I've been working on this skill for a long time. It doesn't come easy either.

OP example is a an example of a “Clueless busy body” stepping in to make “style” judgments

Adam’s (and other examples) above are when there is a real, actual “mistake” that contravenes all known accepted practice and could directly result in an injury.  

If you don’t know the difference, best to stay silent…or as suggested, just ask a question.  If you know it’s the latter, say something 

I have only said something when they have done something so unbelievably stupid that something needs to be said. Although my way of making friends and influencing people can be a bit abrupt at times.

Having rescued, evacuated or administered first aid to various parties, when I saw a situation that was likely going to require me to abandon my plans for the day and become a First Responder, I used to speak out immediately.

I've gotten feedback that people don't like that.  So these days I just resolve not to bother when they break their leg/back, severe an artery, etc.  Callous?  Yes.  But I'm tired of people giving me shit because I was impolite in preventing their accident.

I am also callous in regards to peoples decisions and really don't care much what happens but I have been involved in rescues also and if they are safe then I don't have to carry them out in a sack.

It depends. If there is a significant risk of paralysis and/or a major vessel, e.g., the abdominal aorta, will be severed, I don't say anything. I have told people when I've seen dangerous situations, but I am so over doing that. No one appreciates it. 

WF WF51wrote:

It depends. If there is a significant risk of paralysis and/or a major vessel, e.g., the abdominal aorta, will be severed, I don't say anything. I have told people when I've seen dangerous situations, but I am so over doing that. No one appreciates it. 

You can tell if an abdominal aorta can be severed from a climbing accident, before it happens? Remarkable.

I was in a situation where a person who worked themself into climbing a couple pitches with us. One of our party members was having her first time out climbing. This first time member was last up a pitch and was in a position to clean the anchor. This guy decided it was best to just yell up how to clean the anchor from the ground because "its easy man its just a sport anchor" Well needless to say this new climber was freaked out by this prospect so I tried to step in and say hey I dont think its going well up there let me just fly up this and take care of it. To which he responded and said no man its fine. This new climber was in tears and had us super nervous on the ground. Speaking up to this guy did very little sadly but to this day I will speak up in this situation. Lesson learned from that day is realize not everyone is comfortable being up 80' off the deck and a simple task of cleaning a sport anchor shouldn't be taken for granted. 

Speak up if Doom is imminent.  My wife and I saw a climber sketching HARD on a 5.7 she was trying to follow.  Two climbers were at the first belay at the top of a fairly traversing pitch.  The second had cleaned ALL the gear so that the third climber was facing a huge, bone busting pendulum.  It looked like the party of three only had one rope and after the second got to the belay, the two dropped the cord for the third. 

If the third were super solid, this wasn't safe, but okay.  Not hard climbing.  But this person was clearly struggling. We really thought we were about to see a disaster.  Time to speak up!  My wife asked the climber if she needed help, but eventually we ended up telling her the situation was very dangerous, and we yelled up to the others to let #3 down.  The rope was hooked on a minor nubbin, but it didn't pop.  She got the few feet to the base and untied.  Helicopter evac prevented. Phew!

Usually only when there’s a girl to impress 

The AAC has a thoughtful video on the subject:

https://youtu.be/4BBCDTz7tG4

This brings back memories of walking the top of the cliff line at Devil's Lake and looking at all the TR anchors. If kids were involved I'd say something every time. Taking a minute to build rapport with the leader and mentioning their fault in private can go a long way.

almostradwrote:

Usually only when there’s a girl to impress 

Sometimes things aren’t always what they seem.  One time I thought I was saving a girl from a clueless guy.   Turns out it was exact opposite.  

Was scoping open climbs at the local crag, when a WTF caught my attention — white hardware store rope sticking out like a sore thumb.   Closer inspection revealed a couple totally out of their depth and trying to kill themselves.  It was a “first date” for the couple.   Totally jumped to the conclusion that dickwad here was going to kill an innocent girl through hubris and stupidity.

After aggressively stopping their activity, and being kind of a dick to the guy, in a kind of “what the fuck are you thinking” kind of way, I was shocked to learn it was all her idea and her “gear”, and the guy was terrified and thankful for me stepping in. The girl gave me the stink eye, but didn’t protest.   I actually felt like an ass (par for the course when you assume) and felt like I had just clubbed a baby seal (girl was now teary eyed and quiet) and offered for them to climb with us, but I think their “date” was over and they declined   

Not that proud, but I ended up waiting until a guy climbed up the start of Bob's Buttress Crack (5.9) on Grey Rock in Garden of the Gods. We were watching him and this much younger girl set up, but didn't really notice his pro, or lack of it. The guy had no nuts, no cams, no real trad gear at all it turned out. He had some webbing that he tied water knots in and planned to protect the route in the style of Czech climbers with their monkey fists. But he had zero monkey fists, only water knots in some 1/2 inch and inch webbing. Guy get up about twenty feet, gets a half inch knot in a slot, Elvis legs it, and pitches off. His knot held. When he came down, shaking, I suggested he hit the used climbing gear stores and pick up some nuts at the very least. 

Samuel Ammermannwrote:

I was in a situation where a person who worked themself into climbing a couple pitches with us. One of our party members was having her first time out climbing. This first time member was last up a pitch and was in a position to clean the anchor. This guy decided it was best to just yell up how to clean the anchor from the ground because "its easy man its just a sport anchor" Well needless to say this new climber was freaked out by this prospect so I tried to step in and say hey I dont think its going well up there let me just fly up this and take care of it. To which he responded and said no man its fine. This new climber was in tears and had us super nervous on the ground. Speaking up to this guy did very little sadly but to this day I will speak up in this situation. Lesson learned from that day is realize not everyone is comfortable being up 80' off the deck and a simple task of cleaning a sport anchor shouldn't be taken for granted. 

Another thing to take in is that possibly that person at the anchor had previously been completely trained on how to do it and this was their first time actually doing it. Sometimes the emotional/crying types ask their belayer to make them do it today no matter what. 

Cheiftan Mewswrote:

 Taking a minute to build rapport with the leader and mentioning their fault in private can go a long way.

I agree.  Unfortunately, far too often the accident is about to happen in about 10 seconds.  Politeness and rapport go out the window when the sketching leader is about to deck (onto large rocks) from 15 feet up because his belayer has 10 feet of slack on the ground.

Earlier in my climbing I was talking another climber through a rappel since a route wandered. This was before we left the ground. Another group chimed in and asked if he had rappelled before. they then suggested that we might consider practicing rappelling before committing to it. it gave us a third view point and we wisely took the advice. I think speaking up (gently, as mentioned, asking questions, as mentioned) helped us out. I think it is good and doing it in a way that can be received is valuable.

Always speak up if you see something dangerous, even if it feels embarrassing in the moment, you could help someone avoid serious injury. I was at my local spot about 2 years ago, belaying a friend on a mellow top rope. I look to my right and see a gal belaying her climber on a reverso. He's leading a really spicy run-out climb, and both of her hands are on the climbing side of the rope, not the brake strand. I called over to her "hey watch your brake hand" and she fixed her mistake. When they were done I pulled her aside and explained why I called out, and she said she had never belayed before, and I recommended her watch some videos or go to a class at the gym. It was a very normal interaction, no one got hurt, no one got aggro, and they both walked away from that in one piece. Climbing is becoming more commonplace now, and people who might not be well informed are heading out into the great outdoors more than ever. There's nothing we can do except correct dangerous behavior if we see it. If you see something wack, say something.