Redpoint vs Pinkpoint

Adam Pequettewrote:

In my opinion there is a distinction between a redpoint and a pinkpoint just like there is a distinction between a top rope and a lead.  Is a top rope ascent equal to a lead?

Gotta ask Miles  

rebootwrote:

There are many ways to make an ascent more impressive: barefoot, no chalk, no feet, naked, blind folded, w/ rope tied to your genitals, etc, etc. In the sport climbing world, the general consensus is to NOT use "pinkpoint" to make a distinction for pre-placed draws.

You call it whatever you want, but you are not technically "correct".

i like this phrasing. The origin of the term “Redpoint” referred to a route Kurt Albert was able to free climb. The  modern distinction between redpoint and pinkpoint comes from climbing routes on preplaced gear, not draws. Plus, sport climbing as a discipline implies  we climbing for sport (duh) , rather than a tradition pure ethical ascent. so we want to distill the climbing down to just free climbing from the ground on lead, not the technicality of protection. Attempting to take away the wow factor from ascents by implying they could’ve been “more pure” by placing draws on lead is the antithesis of sport climbing. Anyone that claims that the difference between red and pinkpointing sport routes matters is likely to just be insecure about their climbing abilities or needs an ego check. Im assuming a-lot there, im sure there are tons of climbers that care about this only for themselves, but if someone manages to “pinkpoint” some desperate low percentage route, where the crux changes significantly if hanging draws, i highly doubt they will want to do it again just for the clout. 

TL,DR: Save pinkpointing for gear/mixed routes. Sport climbing isn’t about clipping, it’s about climbing. Don’t give a fuck about anyone says or thinks about your ascents.

I'd guess there is a large overlap between climbers who fuss over this issue and ones who feel the need to rap on a single pitch sport climb. I'd maybe even throw in there climbers who are in the gym leading with all sorts of gear hanging off the harness. 

Adam Pequettewrote:

In my opinion there is a distinction between a redpoint and a pinkpoint just like there is a distinction between a top rope and a lead.  Is a top rope ascent equal to a lead?

That's how I see it too. I've got no problem with people pre-placing draws, stick clipping, etc. Do what you gotta do (or want to do). But there is a glaring inconsistency when some climbers want to eradicate any words that distinguish these types of ascents, but also lose their minds at the idea of a TR counting as a "send". And then consider that many modern sport climbs have gym-like bolt spacing, have draws already hanging, and are often stick clipped to the 2nd bolt... at that point it's closer to a TR than an honest redpoint! And if sport climbing is only about the physical moves, then who cares what protection system one chooses, right? I don't really care how it all shakes out, as it's not going to change anything I do, but could you all just pick a damn lane? Y'all are trying to have your cake and eat it too. 

Adam Pequettewrote:

Is a top rope ascent equal to a lead?

well, if you have to ask...

So, a person walks up to a clean route, racks their harness with a pile a draws, and gives the route a go.  When they are done they leave the route clean and move on.

Are we saying that there is no longer a differentiation to describe the style in which a no-falls free ascent is performed?

How are on-sights performed these days?  Do you all have such good friends that go and hang the draws for you before you get there?

Adam Pequettewrote:

So, a person walks up to a clean route, racks their harness with a pile a draws, and gives the route a go.  When they are done they leave the route clean and move on.

Are we saying that there is no longer a differentiation to describe the style in which a no-falls free ascent is performed?

How are on-sights performed these days?  Do you all have such good friends that go and hang the draws for you before you get there?

Sport climbing is not about style. If you want to talk about style, go trad climbing.

But the flipside is that in sport climbing you can never truly onsight, only flash.

Aaron Kwrote:

But the flipside is that in sport climbing bouldering you can never truly onsight, only flash.

Fixed it for ya

Aaron Kwrote:

But the flipside is that in sport climbing you can never truly onsight, only flash.

I'm trying to understand this statement.  Can you clarify?

Adam Pequettewrote:

I'm trying to understand this statement.  Can you clarify?

He is being annoying and implying that the presence of bolts lays out the path, invalidating the claim that you had no prior knowledge of the route. Bored troll or crusty dick (2/10)

Brandon Rwrote:

That's how I see it too. I've got no problem with people pre-placing draws, stick clipping, etc. Do what you gotta do (or want to do). But there is a glaring inconsistency when some climbers want to eradicate any words that distinguish these types of ascents, but also lose their minds at the idea of a TR counting as a "send". And then consider that many modern sport climbs have gym-like bolt spacing, have draws already hanging, and are often stick clipped to the 2nd bolt... at that point it's closer to a TR than an honest redpoint! And if sport climbing is only about the physical moves, then who cares what protection system one chooses, right? I don't really care how it all shakes out, as it's not going to change anything I do, but could you all just pick a damn lane? Y'all are trying to have your cake and eat it too. 

This brings up an interesting point. With tightly bolted climbs, clipping all the bolts is harder than skipping some bolts. So obviously if you make it easier for yourself by skipping bolts, that should count for less. The same goes for skipping placements on trad. How about calling it an orangepoint?

Adam Pequettewrote:

Definitely.  I've pinkpointed plenty.  I just think we should just always call it what it is.  If a 5.15 requires a pinkpoint at this time in history then that's what it takes.  It's unbelievably impressive.

Do you think climbers in the future will be trying to send 5.15 and cleaning their draws every time just to re-hang them, in an effort to improve on style and move the sport forward?

In my opinion there is a distinction between a redpoint and a pinkpoint just like there is a distinction between a top rope and a lead.  

In your opinion, and maybe the opinion of a few others, but the community consensus has drifted away years ago. It is now irrelevant in the sport of climbing. 

Is a top rope ascent equal to a lead?

No, this has not changed and I don’t see how it’s related.

Adam Pequettewrote:

Definitely.  I don't disagree.  Take the energy you have and apply it in a way that allows you enjoy the sport.  I don't think that changes the fact that clipping the draws on lead typically takes more effort.  There is a distinction and you can do with it what you will.

Modern sport climbing consensus recognizes this difference, but has decided that a distinction is unnecessary as we like to focus on the difficulty of climbing, not hanging draws.

Someone needs to post a link to the scene in Idiocracy where Luke Wilson is trying to explain to that plants need water. 

It's funny (to me at least) how sport climbing has evolved since it began in the 80's. What started out with bolts placed to protect from big falls has slowly eroded into bolts every 5 feet (or less!), draws already hanging, the first part of the route stick clipped (TR'ed). It's almost as if it's been designed to remove as much of the challenge of leading as possible, but yet still desperately hang on to the technicality of "leading". But I'm sure ego had nothing to do with it. It's like grade inflation, gerrymandering, etc... changing the rules/language/standards to make ourselves look or feel like more of a badass "leader" while actually doing less. Not any individual's fault, but more a slippery slope that has already slipped. Let's just be honest with ourselves and call a spade a spade. "Pinkpointing" (or top roping) doesn't have to be an affront to your masculinity (even if the name was originally chosen to do that), it just is what it is. No need to erase the terms from our lexicon or denigrate those who choose to use them. 

Personally, I (usually) choose not to pre-hang draws mostly because I find looking up at a bunch of shiny/colorful objects swinging around in the wind visually unappealing, which takes away from one of the main reasons I climb outdoors. I'd save myself the gas money and just go to the gym otherwise. It's not so I can impress anyone else, but more to maximize my enjoyment of a route, both during and after I climb it. It just feels better to me to walk up to a route and climb it from the ground... I hope that's okay with you all. I'm okay with you doing it whatever way works for you too, but like top roping vs. leading, or onsighting vs. working a route dozens of times and then sending, there is a difference and if we're going to call attention to the latter, then we should do the same for the former. 

Ridiculous arguments relying on naked chalkless free soloing, what Adam Ondra's sponsors think, etc., only serve as ridiculous arguments that don't prove anything. We all know that leaving draws up is more convenient than taking them down each try, just as it's inconvenient to have to pull the rope down and reflake it after each try. Convenience is a fine reason for doing something one way or another, but it doesn't address the issue at hand. If convenience was the only consideration, we'd never leave the gym. 

Brandon R wrote:

That's how I see it too. I've got no problem with people pre-placing draws, stick clipping, etc. Do what you gotta do (or want to do). But there is a glaring inconsistency when some climbers want to eradicate any words that distinguish these types of ascents, but also lose their minds at the idea of a TR counting as a "send". And then consider that many modern sport climbs have gym-like bolt spacing, have draws already hanging, and are often stick clipped to the 2nd bolt... at that point it's closer to a TR than an honest redpoint! And if sport climbing is only about the physical moves, then who cares what protection system one chooses, right? I don't really care how it all shakes out, as it's not going to change anything I do, but could you all just pick a damn lane? Y'all are trying to have your cake and eat it too. 

Brandon my internet friend, what is up?  

Good thoughts on the matter.   I just don't get why people are so concerned about what other strangers are claiming as a "send/redpoint/pinkpoint" or whatever.  It's not like you're in competition with all these internet strangers.  Everyone who starts climbing is usually hell bent on "sending" a 12a just so they can say they sent one, then when they do all the insecurities come out about it being soft or the draws were hung or whatever.  Climbing is so much better once you get to the point that what you call a send is purely up to you and those who are in your inner climbing circle.  If someone really wants to hang their draws so they can call it a redpoint power to them, if they want to use pre hung draws and still call it a redpoint go for it, if they do it on top rope solo all good you're not their sponsor so why care?

Edit: Just saw your other comment Brandon, good thoughts for people to consider while they make up their own rules, for me personally it depends on the crag and even the grade.  If I'm at a steep crag that has permas I'll always use the permas because cleaning that is a bitch, if I'm doing a mellow and/or warm up, I'll always hang my own draws. If I'm going for a "redpoint" and the draws have already been hung by me or someone else, I'll leave them because it is easier and more enjoyable for me. If I'm doing a trad route I'll always place my gear.  Its the Wilson way and I'm good with it, even if someone claims my send doesn't count because the draws were already there. 

Brandon Rwrote:

It's funny (to me at least) how sport climbing has evolved since it began in the 80's. What started out with bolts placed to protect from big falls has slowly eroded into bolts every 5 feet (or less!), draws already hanging, the first part of the route stick clipped (TR'ed). It's almost as if it's been designed to remove as much of the challenge of leading as possible, but yet still desperately hang on to the technicality of "leading". But I'm sure ego had nothing to do with it. It's like grade inflation, gerrymandering, etc... changing the rules/language/standards to make ourselves look or feel like more of a badass "leader" while actually doing less. Not any individual's fault, but more a slippery slope that has already slipped. Let's just be honest with ourselves and call a spade a spade. "Pinkpointing" (or top roping) doesn't have to be an affront to your masculinity (even if the name was originally chosen to do that), it just is what it is. No need to erase the terms from our lexicon or denigrate those who choose to use them. 

No, that's not what has happened: the trend isn't removing as much of the challenge of leading as possible, it's choosing WHAT KIND of challenge leaders take on. The sport has moved toward challenges that involve movement skill and strength, rather than clipping skill and risk tolerance. It's almost like the sport is called "climbing" instead of "clipping". Making clipping easier makes it possible to take on more climbing challenge.

You're saying you're okay with how other people climb, but you clearly don't understand it and are representing this as removing challenge. You're not the accepting and open-minded person you think you are if you're downplaying the achievements of others like this.

Personally, I (usually) choose not to pre-hang draws mostly because I find looking up at a bunch of shiny/colorful objects swinging around in the wind visually unappealing, which takes away from one of the main reasons I climb outdoors.

It seems like you might also find looking at a bunch of shiny bolts visually unappealing and should get into trad climbing, but your lack of basic internal consistency of ideas is none of my business, I suppose.

It just feels better to me to walk up to a route and climb it from the ground... I hope that's okay with you all.

That's fine, I just don't see how having permadraws there ahead of time would be any less of that experience than having bolts there.

And if you fall mid-route... what then? You prefer the experience of removing all the draws so you can start from the ground up? That's fun for you?

Or do you just remove as much of the challenge from leading as possible by only climbing easy enough stuff that you never fall?

I'm okay with you doing it whatever way works for you too, but like top roping vs. leading, or onsighting vs. working a route dozens of times and then sending, there is a difference and if we're going to call attention to the latter, then we should do the same for the former.

You're okay with people doing whatever works for them, but you'll insist on calling it a vaguely misogynistic term which was intended to denigrate it?

The big take away questions...

Who cares how you climb? Can you really cheat when there are no real rules? Do you climb for others? Do you want to look badass? Do you actually climb, or just talk about climbing? Is climbing just a cool phase in your life? Are you truthful when sharing accomplishments?

David Kwrote: …but your lack of basic internal consistency of ideas is none of my business, I suppose.

Lol.   No doubt typed without any hint of irony

x15x15wrote:

The big take away questions...

Who cares how you climb?

Everyone on MP forums 

 Can you really cheat when there are no real rules?

Yes. There are numerous climbing controversies regarding climbers lying about sending. Granted, this only applies to people who have something to lose by lying, not us common folk. 

Do you climb for others?

Sometimes I have to hang draws for my weak chuffer friends…does that count?

Do you want to look badass?

Yeah, that’s why I always wear leather pants (over harness) and denim vests. 

Do you actually climb, or just talk about climbing?

Yes

 Is climbing just a cool phase in your life?

Define ‘cool’….

Are you truthful when sharing accomplishments?

Define ‘accomplishments’….