Redpoint vs Pinkpoint

David Kwrote:

I have more respect for people who don't criticize people better than them.

David, respect comes in degrees.  I'm sure you climb better than me....nearly everybody does.  I can respect that. At age 51 my days of climbing to impress anyone are long gone.  Is climbing 5.11 more respectable than 5.10? Definitely.  I just place more respect for a readpoint ascent over a pink point because it's typically more difficult.

Adam Pequettewrote:

It definitely takes more energy to place the draws on lead.  It's an amazing feat to climb Silence without falling.  It'll be more impressive when someone does it while placing the draws on lead.  

Or…you know…they could take that extra effort and use it to climb harder instead of clipping harder.

csproulwrote:

Or…you know…they could take that extra effort and use it to climb harder instead of clipping harder.

Definitely.  I don't disagree.  Take the energy you have and apply it in a way that allows you enjoy the sport.  I don't think that changes the fact that clipping the draws on lead typically takes more effort.  There is a distinction and you can do with it what you will.

I think some of y’all are confusing clipping draws with hanging draws…

David Kwrote:

It's easier to send if the draws are already there, than if you have to hang them yourself, but I don't think the difference is consistent across grades. Just based on climbs I've done a few times, in the same area, for example:

• Holy War is much harder if you hang the draws yourself, because the bolts are a bit too high for the stances, so you have to pull partway into moves to clip the bolts. Draws on the bolts put the clips within easy reach of the stances (for me; if you're short, they might still be too high).
• For Twist and Shout, all the bolts are easy to reach from decent stances, so I don't think there's much difference between hanging the draws while you climb.

Those climbs are the same grade.

A lot of us do enjoy doing harder things, but for me, if a climb isn't hard enough, I'll just go find a harder climb: there's not a shortage. If you want to add difficulty to a climb by making it harder to clip, that's your choice to make, but I think looking for harder climbing is more interesting than looking for harder ways to clip.

Whoever bolted Holy War must be like 6’6”. Best 9 at foster tho. At 5’8”ish, that draw above the mini ledge is always a wee bit spicy

seriously

B Swrote:

Whoever bolted Holy War must be like 6’6”. Best 9 at foster tho. At 5’8”ish, that draw above the mini ledge is always a wee bit spicy

Yeah, I'm 5'10" with a +1 ape index and I still can't reach those bolts from the obvious stances. That bit in the middle, right after the traverse right, if the draw is there, I easily reach up from the no-hands rest and clip, but if the draw isn't there, it's more of a, step up onto the tilted rail with the left, lock off on the mediocre sloper right hand, flag right foot, and clip the bolt from there. I suppose you can just continue and clip from the next jug but then you'd be clipping at about mid-thigh height.

Its... okay. Not bad enough to start trouble over. But if it ever needs a rebolt while I'm around, I'd volunteer and all those bolts would be ~10" lower.

It is a really, really good climb though.

David Kwrote:

I have more respect for people who don't criticize people better than them.

EDIT: My guy, your ticks are public.

WTF is this climbing level shaming? Dude I dont care who you are or how hard you climb, I will tell you to your face if I dont agree with you. You need to get off your high horse big time. Do you also think you cant criticise people that make more money than you, have a more successful job than you, have a better hairline than you? I am pretty sure most people in this forum are 'better than you' if that's your attitude on life. 

J T wrote:

Scrolls through 3 pages to post the Peter Griffin who-the-hell-cares video. Love it   

don’t worry I only made it 3 posts in

Doug Chismwrote:

WTF is this climbing level shaming? Dude I dont care who you are or how hard you climb, I will tell you to your face if I dont agree with you. You need to get off your high horse big time. Do you also think you cant criticise people that make more money than you, have a more successful job than you, have a better hairline than you? I am pretty sure most people in this forum are 'better than you' if that's your attitude on life. 

I mean I do find it humerous that the dude trying to grade shame has convenient made his ticks private and his to-do list is primarily 5.10/5.11 and below, but wants to play the I-climb-harder-than-you-so-I’m-better card. It’s stuff like this that keep me entertained while Trevor’s not posting.

How Tradiban and I are feeling these days 

Since we’re on the topic of parsing the finer points of semantics and difficulties, I want MP to take the lead in promoting low impact, LNT principles and add the selection of “greasepoint” as an option.  That is climbing it clean without chalk in approach shoes. 

 A greasepoint is a much higher achievement than a redpoint.

Doug Chismwrote:

WTF is this climbing level shaming?

Look at the post I'm responding to. I'm not just shaming him for not climbing hard out of the blue--I have tons of respect for anybody who's out there having fun and challenging themselves. But the dude is literally saying that Adam Ondra didn't redpoint Silence because he did it with prehung draws. Surely it's reasonable in that context to point out that Silence, with or without prehung draws, is harder than he'll ever climb.

Do you also think you cant criticise people that make more money than you, have a more successful job than you, have a better hairline than you?

Nope. But surely you can agree that it would be pretty stupid to say something like, "Elon Musk is bad at making money" when you just declared bankruptcy on your life coaching business.

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

I mean I do find it humerous that the dude trying to grade shame has convenient made his ticks private and his to-do list is primarily 5.10/5.11 and below, but wants to play the I-climb-harder-than-you-so-I’m-better card. It’s stuff like this that keep me entertained while Trevor’s not posting.

I'm not playing the "I climb harder than you so I'm better" card. I'm a chuffer like everyone else. I'm playing the "Adam Ondra climbs harder than you so your opinion on his send of Silence is stupid" card.

So wait, if do a climb with Perma draws is that a red point of a pink point?

csproulwrote:

Or…you know…they could take that extra effort and use it to climb harder instead of clipping harder.

Agree. As someone said once, it's called sport climbing, not sport clipping!

David Kwrote:

David Kwrote:

“I alone know that I am wise because I alone know that I know nothing” - Socrates

Silly little argument, at the root of his comment, David is just stating that it’s dumb for this guy, or any of us really, to talk semantically about others ascents, 10 grades higher than most of us will ever climb. The kind of thinking that leads you to say “silence would be harder if you placed draws on lead” is upstream from criticizing people closer to your level, which has more immediate effects. Just be fucking happy someone has found a way to free climb 15d.

Adam Pequettewrote:

...At age 51 my days of climbing to impress anyone are long gone.  Is climbing 5.11 more respectable than 5.10? Definitely.  I just place more respect for a readpoint ascent over a pink point because it's typically more difficult.

I think I see the problem.  Climb for yourself, have fun, and maybe it will be impressive. Maybe not! ! 

x15x15wrote:

I think I see the problem.  Climb for yourself, have fun, and maybe it will be impressive. Maybe not! ! 

Definitely.  I've pinkpointed plenty.  I just think we should just always call it what it is.  If a 5.15 requires a pinkpoint at this time in history then that's what it takes.  It's unbelievably impressive.

In my opinion there is a distinction between a redpoint and a pinkpoint just like there is a distinction between a top rope and a lead.  Is a top rope ascent equal to a lead?

David Kwrote:

Look at the post I'm responding to. I'm not just shaming him for not climbing hard out of the blue--I have tons of respect for anybody who's out there having fun and challenging themselves. But the dude is literally saying that Adam Ondra didn't redpoint Silence because he did it with prehung draws. Surely it's reasonable in that context to point out that Silence, with or without prehung draws, is harder than he'll ever climb.

Well if you think pinkpoints exist, then he is correct in that assertion…which is what this entire meaningless thread has been about, no? Lol 

Adam Pequettewrote:

In my opinion there is a distinction between a redpoint and a pinkpoint just like there is a distinction between a top rope and a lead.  Is a top rope ascent equal to a lead?

There are many ways to make an ascent more impressive: barefoot, no chalk, no feet, naked, blind folded, w/ rope tied to your genitals, etc, etc. In the sport climbing world, the general consensus is to NOT use "pinkpoint" to make a distinction for pre-placed draws.

You call it whatever you want, but you are not technically "correct".