Redpoint vs Pinkpoint

Mingming Ywrote: All the pros send 5.14 + with draws already placed. None of them call their send "pinkpoint". Why would the difference exist below 5.14 ?

when i started i didnt know there was a difference between redpoint and pinkpoint because in all the crazy climbing videos i was watching all of the pros already had their draws bolted on their sends. it wasnt until i started doing research into the topic when i started ticking routes on here that i figured out a "true send" meant clipping your draws to the bolts and i really wish i had known sooner because i told friends at the crag "oh just keep the draws up there, ill use them on my try. all of the pros already have their quickdraws clipped in videos of their sends" and after finding out i had to be like "hey guys turns out i was wrong thats what a pinkpoint is" long story short i think the distinction is important and i believe it should be stressed more in modern climbing seeing as i didnt know the difference until months into my sport climbing 

Do most people agree that its harder to redpoint than to pinkpoint?  And if so, is the difference greater as the difficulty increases?

Drederekwrote:

Do most people agree that its harder to redpoint than to pinkpoint?  And if so, is the difference greater as the difficulty increases?

Depends on the route and the bolting strategy of the equipper. That said, I think the main reason it is harder (for people who make the distinction) is that cleaning the draws after every failed attempt just so you can hang them up again for the next attempt is a big hassle. You either need to continue up to the anchor on what you know is a failed attempt or walk around to the top (may not be feasible) and rap to clean. Takes energy and drains fun.

Normal redpointing (for sane people who don't care about the distinction) you just lower back down to the ground (maybe after feeling the move out an extra time), take your rest and go again.

Collin Gillwrote:

when i started i didnt know there was a difference between redpoint and pinkpoint because in all the crazy climbing videos i was watching all of the pros already had their draws bolted on their sends. it wasnt until i started doing research into the topic when i started ticking routes on here that i figured out a "true send" meant clipping your draws to the bolts and i really wish i had known sooner because i told friends at the crag "oh just keep the draws up there, ill use them on my try. all of the pros already have their quickdraws clipped in videos of their sends" and after finding out i had to be like "hey guys turns out i was wrong thats what a pinkpoint is" long story short i think the distinction is important and i believe it should be stressed more in modern climbing seeing as i didnt know the difference until months into my sport climbing 

You're fine, there is no difference between a red point and a pink point in modern sport climbing. You can keep the draws on the route and still claim a red point. This is the consensus of the climbing community, we've hashed this all out already. Now-a-days everybody just uses "send/sent" anyway which encompasses both.

Just like that guy who jugged the Nose with his 8 y/o, it shouldn't matter to anyone how someone else climbed a route. I personally think that the difference in effort between a redpoint and pinkpoint (with stick-clipped first bolt) is about the same difference in effort between a pinkpoint and a top rope ascent. 

Matt Joneswrote:

For a single pitch sport climb with fixed draws, yes I mark pinkpoint.  For the latter no.

so routes with permas are impossible to redpoint unless you clip your own quick draws into the chain?

Mingming Ywrote: All the pros send 5.14 + with draws already placed. None of them call their send "pinkpoint". Why would the difference exist below 5.14 ?

There is no difference below 5.14. Almost without exception, RedPoint now refers to doing a route clean on lead, even with the first draw stick clipped with pre-placed draws and perma's. This is simply now what the term refers to by the vast majority of the climbing community. If you placed the draws, it sometimes is additionally called it 'putting it up'. If people want to use the old school naming convention its fine, but dont expect others to follow it. Definitions of words change over time. 

Try telling Ondra’s sponsors he hasn’t redpointed a 5.15 and get back to us

Unless you're a pro it's all semantics between you and those you climb with.  I'd imagine MP keeps red and pink points as an option to benefit those who want to want to use one or the other.   99% of all commenters here are climbing as a hobby thus they pick their own rules, it wouldn't make sense to remove an option as there are people who like to differentiate between the two. 

Just a bit of history. “redpoint/rotpunkt” originated in Germany around 1976, and indicated that an aid line was led clean. It is named after Kurt Albert’s brand of coffee pot, as he would paint a red dot under newly freed routes in the Frankenjura.

“Pinkpoint” originated in the U.S. in the late 80s by insecure Americans who had to find an effeminate and derogatory term for sport climbing.

Originally, it really had nothing to do with whether the draws were prehung or not. 

Frank Steinwrote:

Just a bit of history. “redpoint/rotpunkt” originated in Germany around 1976, and indicated that an aid line was led clean. It is named after Kurt Albert’s brand of coffee pot, as he would paint a red dot under newly freed routes in the Frankenjura.

“Pinkpoint” originated in the U.S. in the late 80s by insecure Americans who had to find an effeminate and derogatory term for sport climbing.

Originally, it really had nothing to do with whether the draws were prehung or not. 

Idk much about the origin of pinkpoint, but I concur that redpointing a route had nothing to do with draws being hung or not. Additionally, by today’s standards, you’d have to clean the route after each and every attempt until you hang the draws on your send go.

TL;DR - Whoever invented/uses the term “pinkpoint“ is a hoser 

the schmuck wrote:

Just a bit of history. “redpoint/rotpunkt” originated in Germany around 1976, and indicated that an aid line was led clean. It is named after Kurt Albert’s brand of coffee pot, as he would paint a red dot under newly freed routes in the Frankenjura.

“Pinkpoint” originated in the U.S. in the late 80s by insecure Americans who had to find an effeminate and derogatory term for sport climbing.

Originally, it really had nothing to do with whether the draws were prehung or not. 

Good history and feels more in the spirit of "you vs the rock" instead of how I can validate my insecurities. 

Because its an absolutely useless terminology.  If it’s sent on any attempt after the first attempt I call it a redpoint regardless if draws are hanging or not.

I had been diligent about using pinkpoint up until this last summer. Really, if MP had a way to slice and dice your ticks, I'd probably keep doing it. I'd love to be able to say "ok show me only ticks on sport climbs that were on-sight" or whatever. I have a bunch of burns that I fell on. Would love to be able to filter those out to see how actual send grades are progressing. Without that level of functionality, I've stopped being quite so diligent.

The pink point is dead in sport climbing.

 It does still exist with climbing on gear. Most will consider it a grade easier on preplaced gear like Ron Kauk pink pointing magic line and his son redpointing it.

There has to be a distinction between clipping the draws and not clipping the draws, clipping the draws is harder so in the difficulty obsessed sport climber world it’s important to know the difference.

If the color pink is so threatening to y’all just pick a different color!

Drederekwrote:

Do most people agree that its harder to redpoint than to pinkpoint?  And if so, is the difference greater as the difficulty increases?

It's easier to send if the draws are already there, than if you have to hang them yourself, but I don't think the difference is consistent across grades. Just based on climbs I've done a few times, in the same area, for example:

• Holy War is much harder if you hang the draws yourself, because the bolts are a bit too high for the stances, so you have to pull partway into moves to clip the bolts. Draws on the bolts put the clips within easy reach of the stances (for me; if you're short, they might still be too high).
• For Twist and Shout, all the bolts are easy to reach from decent stances, so I don't think there's much difference between hanging the draws while you climb.

Those climbs are the same grade.

A lot of us do enjoy doing harder things, but for me, if a climb isn't hard enough, I'll just go find a harder climb: there's not a shortage. If you want to add difficulty to a climb by making it harder to clip, that's your choice to make, but I think looking for harder climbing is more interesting than looking for harder ways to clip.

Yep, not sure what the angst is all about.  Climbing is what it is.  For those who care and are logging ticks and talking about letter grade differences, or even mentioning “redpoint” one way or the other, yadda yadda, then you can’t have it both ways.  You either climbed it ground up and placed the “gear” -actual gear or just the draws —as you went.  Or you didn’t.  Simple. Not a big deal but also just stating reality

Seems many want to care and not care at the same time.  I for one, don’t care.  But if someone asked, I’d tell them how I climbed it.  And it’d probably be a pinkpoint cuz I wouldn’t care enough to go for the actual redpoint, but I’d never say I redpointed it. 

It definitely takes more energy to place the draws on lead.  It's an amazing feat to climb Silence without falling.  It'll be more impressive when someone does it while placing the draws on lead.  

Adam Pequettewrote:

I have more respect for the readpoint than the pink point.  It definitely takes more energy to place the draws on lead.  It's an amazing feat to climb Silence without falling.  It's more impressive if someone does it while placing the draws on lead.  

I have more respect for people who don't criticize people better than them.

EDIT: My guy, your ticks are public.