Elnaz Rekabi competes without hijab at Asian Championships in solidarity with Iranian protestors.

M Mwrote: I can't help but think that some of the raging progressive types would love to send some MAGA bred kids overseas to fight this and many other battles that don't really affect our lives. War would certainly boost daddies stock in the war machine eh?

started yikes and is now even worse. what a sad cesspool this place is. 

i just came by the cesspool to tell everyone how much it stinks, carry on!

Jason Kimwrote:

Also, fuck any culture where burning a flag (any flag) is a big deal.

Please try to employ logic and language with precision. The issue here is a government that imprisons (and very likely tortures or murders) women if they do not wear the hijab. The discussion gets very uncomfortable for those who have excused this regime, or this particular manifestation of religion. It causes your circuits to cross, and then you say things like:  “yeah and I hate other bad stuff too!”  This murderous and totalitarian government would cause you, no doubt, were you subjected to it’s dictates, to wish fervently for a culture where people are free to disagree about how to behave in regards to a flag. Any flag. 

j mowrote:

Please try to employ logic and language with precision. The issue here is a government that imprisons (and very likely tortures or murders) women if they do not wear the hijab. The discussion gets very uncomfortable for those who have excused this regime, or this particular manifestation of religion. It causes your circuits to cross, and then you say things like:  “yeah and I hate other bad stuff too!”  This murderous and totalitarian government would cause you, no doubt, were you subjected to it’s dictates, to wish fervently for a culture where people are free to disagree about how to behave in regards to a flag. Any flag. 

And flip the script to India where muslim women fight for their right to wear the hajib.

What is most surprising to me, as probably one of the few muslim climbers who use this website, is not the subtle (and not so subtle) anti-muslim bias being displayed here, it's that TRADIBAN of all people, the biggest goddamn troll on this webpage, is the voice urging cultural sensitivity in this discussion! Like, wasn't he banned for a while??? This thread has truly gone off the rails.

Tradibanwrote:

I’m just saying try understanding cultural and religious symbolism before telling an entire religion, culture, and country to go “fuck” themselves.

Wearing a hijab is very important and symbolistic to many muslim women. “Americans”  don’t like it because they don’t understand it. Yes, it is a symbol of oppression of women to some people but it is also other things to many people who may think differently than you and I.

It's crude that he's is bringing up arguments like "for them, going without a hijab is like going topless", but in the above comment, he has a real point with regards to having discussions of Hijab through a culturally chauvinist lens.  Like seriously, he's perhaps the only one here who's heard of Orientalism.  

I don't know if anyone in this thread wears a hijab, is Muslim, or is adjacent to Muslims in a meaningful way to have a personal experience around the complexities of head scarfs--  

Needless to say, while people here are well intentioned in wanting to support protesters against a government that is truly repressive, and Elnaz making a truly brave decision in the face of a government that is clearly brutal and doesnt mind locking up political dissidents,  some of the comments are at best coming from a lens of imperial feminism, and at worse are heavily tinged with anti-muslim sentiment. 

There's a serious risk of furthering deeply problematic narratives when it comes to these discussions, and those narratives actually deeply undermine Muslim womens' rights, not just in autocratic middle eastern countries, but in otherwise advanced western countries. 

Too much to unpack right now, and i'm about to get a climbing sesh in before the gym closes, but i'll try to write up a an actually detailed response shortly (trying to relate some of the pretty basic nuances that you are privy to from actually being a Muslim and having to be involved in these discussions for a long period of time).  I saw this tweet reposted today though, and it's somewhat relevant here.  Anyways, gonna go stress my fingers for an hour or so and try to return. 

Mark Pilatewrote:

Well, do YOU have a source on the actual numbers across regions and countries?  And how reliable would those numbers be if there was a source?  Can definitely see that “most” may be more firmly replaced by “many”,  but as long as it applies to “any”, it’s a fucked up system.   

Your other points are spurious.  They are forced.  No choice in the matter.  That some do it willing is irrelevant.  What’s wrong with letting ALL do it willingly? And in a country like Iran, where the religion is so totally embedded in the culture and government, how do YOU separate them out in any meaningful way?

Despite being deeply embedded in the Muslim community, I do not. Which is why I found What he said so absurd.

re my other points… They are being forced by their government not by their religion. Many Muslim women choose to not wear hijab as is their right to do so.  So when a government comes along and says we are gonna force you to do something that even your own religion is not forcing you to do, how do you then say that the religion is the problem?

Make no mistake, hijab is mandatory in Islam, but just like everything else that is mandatory or prohibited (be it alcohol, theft, praying the daily prayers, etc etc), it is *each individual’s* personal struggle to implement what they can and choose. It is not for a government to force it upon them.

Chad Millerwrote:

I did make a strong sweeping statement.  Unlike Tradi I do have sources.  

In the US about 43% of muslim women wear a hijab.

Outside of the US between 40% - 55% of muslim women wear a hijab.  

These numbers include countries / areas that have laws requiring women to wear a hijab.  

I understand the difference between culture and religion.  I also understand that religion can impact and be the basis for a group's culture.  

Thx homie I know plenty about hijab and all the various ways it’s practiced and not practiced, I don’t need the wiki page for it.

I’m asking you for a source for your statements:

Most muslim women don't like wearing a hijab, they are forced to.  The hijab is viewed as a symbol of oppression for most muslim women.

Religion can (and does) impact culture. And then sometimes culture can take religion and bastardize it into something else. We see this in plenty of places. The question is, are we nuanced enough to distinguish the difference?

Hijab is not the problem.

M Mwrote:

We have some crazy laws for sure and instead of changing them we just ignore them. Mainly this happens because politicians are too busy stoking the hate fire and raising money for the next election.

Its funny how your message is attacked somewhat blindly (by some) in a country that is supposed to be the most accepting place on earth. We became terrorists to fight our masters for freedom a few hundred years ago, now we feel entitled enough to play Team America World Police?

I can't help but think that some of the raging progressive types would love to send some MAGA bred kids overseas to fight this and many other battles that don't really affect our lives. War would certainly boost daddies stock in the war machine eh?

This might be the most poignant and relevant thing I’ve ever read on MP.

dullah mwrote:

The question is, are we nuanced enough to distinguish the difference?

This indeed is the question- about almost every topic, and based on what I see from most people that want to “discuss” things, the answer is no, unfortunately.

Wali Kwrote:

What is most surprising to me ... it's that TRADIBAN of all people, the biggest goddamn troll on this webpage, is the voice urging cultural sensitivity in this discussion! Like, wasn't he banned for a while??? This thread has truly gone off the rails.

No.
This thread provided a meaningful insight into thinking and values of American woke progressive chauvinists.

BBC reporting that Iranian authorities have Rekabi under effective house arrest and have threatened seizure of her family’s considerable land holdings. Tough times for a brave climber. 

Alan Rubinwrote:

Last week down in the Red, I saw something that made my blood both 'run cold' and 'boil' simultaneously. Hanging over the front porch of a house (along with several Trump banners) was a US flag--the ole Stars and Stripes, but with a cross superimposed on top of the stars---Christian Nationalism is very real and is at heart not very different than the Ayatollah Regime in Iran  or the Taliban in Afghanistan—-fundamentalists are equally dangerous, no matter what the religion they profess.

This is the correct order of things. Christ is King. Your country is an extension of your family and love of family is only fully realized through love of God. Just so you know, this is what Christians believe. "Christian nationalism" just means Christians who love their country, which should be all Christians. God comes before everything else, and love of God leads to a flourishing country. Surely you hold moral principles that are above the authority of your country? Don't you want your country to align with some moral order and "do better" at times? This is analogous to the Christian nationalism that you decry. The country has to conform to some moral order, I suppose you think yours is correct? Personally I trust the authority of God and thousands of years of tradition more. I'm sorry we appear to be at odds, I will pray for you and for Elnaz Rekabi. What has happened to her is not right.

Bren Kochwrote:

This is the correct order of things. Christ is King. 

Bless your heart

Bren Kochwrote:

This is the correct order of things. Christ is King. Your country is an extension of your family and love of family is only fully realized through love of God. Just so you know, this is what Christians believe. "Christian nationalism" just means Christians who love their country, which should be all Christians. God comes before everything else, and love of God leads to a flourishing country. Surely you hold moral principles that are above the authority of your country? Don't you want your country to align with some moral order and "do better" at times? This is analogous to the Christian nationalism that you decry. The country has to conform to some moral order, I suppose you think yours is correct? Personally I trust the authority of God and thousands of years of tradition more. I'm sorry we appear to be at odds, I will pray for you and for Elnaz Rekabi. What has happened to her is not right.

I especially love when the wholesome Christians fly their FUKK this and FUKK that flags in their yards and on their cars. Jesus would be proud right?

Bren Kochwrote:

This is the correct order of things. Christ is King. Your country is an extension of your family and love of family is only fully realized through love of God. Just so you know, this is what Christians believe. "Christian nationalism" just means Christians who love their country, which should be all Christians. God comes before everything else, and love of God leads to a flourishing country. Surely you hold moral principles that are above the authority of your country? Don't you want your country to align with some moral order and "do better" at times? This is analogous to the Christian nationalism that you decry. The country has to conform to some moral order, I suppose you think yours is correct? Personally I trust the authority of God and thousands of years of tradition more. I'm sorry we appear to be at odds, I will pray for you and for Elnaz Rekabi. What has happened to her is not right.

Given the chance I believe men like you would behave here very similarly to the way the Shia Iranians behave there. Fortunately we have constitutional protections from your type…For now.  I do have to hand it to you guys though, the amount of effort put forth to infiltrate our government with religious ideology and hijack our flag is impressive. Jesus wouldn’t have hung out with you, I’m certain of it.

djkyotewrote:

Bless your heart

Assuming you mean that sincerely, thank you! May God lend us courage to stand up against evil in this world including the evil within our own hearts.

B Radwrote:

Given the chance I believe men like you would behave here very similarly to the way the Shia Iranians behave there. Fortunately we have constitutional protections from your type…For now.  I do have to hand it to you though, the amount of effort put forth to infiltrate our government with religious ideology and hijack our flag is impressive. Jesus wouldn’t have hung out with you, I’m certain of it.

Christians do not believe women need to wear head coverings in public so you are wrong about this. We believe man and woman are created in the image and likeness of God and are thus deserving of equal dignity and love. Not sure where the animosity is coming from, sorry you feel this way about Christians.

Bren Kochwrote:

This is the correct order of things. Christ is King. Your country is an extension of your family and love of family is only fully realized through love of God. Just so you know, this is what Christians believe. "Christian nationalism" just means Christians who love their country, which should be all Christians. God comes before everything else, and love of God leads to a flourishing country. Surely you hold moral principles that are above the authority of your country? Don't you want your country to align with some moral order and "do better" at times? This is analogous to the Christian nationalism that you decry. The country has to conform to some moral order, I suppose you think yours is correct? Personally I trust the authority of God and thousands of years of tradition more. I'm sorry we appear to be at odds, I will pray for you and for Elnaz Rekabi. What has happened to her is not right.

T0

Bren Kochwrote:

We believe man and woman are created in the image and likeness of God and are thus deserving of equal dignity and love. 

LOL.  Sure have funny ways of showing it...  

Bren Kochwrote:

Christians do not believe women need to wear head coverings in public so you are wrong about this. We believe man and woman are created in the image and likeness of God and are thus deserving of equal dignity and love. Not sure where the animosity is coming from, sorry you feel this way about Christians.

Try 2000 years of history. But not all Christians--just those who try to force their beliefs on others--as with all religions.