Elnaz Rekabi competes without hijab at Asian Championships in solidarity with Iranian protestors.

Chad Millerwrote:

Again Tradiban - I have to respectfully disagree with your statement. 

Most muslim women don't like wearing a hijab, they are forced to.  The hijab is viewed as a symbol of oppression for most muslim women.  I have a problem with it when women are forced to wear the hijab.   

I’m sure you have a source for this because no person here would make a such strong sweeping statement like that without knowing what they are talking about, right?

Also, I’m sure you recognize the difference between culture and religion, right?

dullah mwrote:

I’m sure you have a source for this because no person here would make a such strong sweeping statement like that without knowing what they are talking about, right?

Also, I’m sure you recognize the difference between culture and religion, right?

Here’s an interesting article in that regard:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/18/nyregion/nj-teacher-hijab-ibtihaj-muhammad.html?unlocked_article_code=TNBrWE-pZninf9cqnRGSJZpe1jeTwVrcgzIlIC44j979V7xT7EW04P-NgV-wwHu_gSInYJBBr8r6t65yZcHVvUGsA8th-4pJypPPoxfHyKrASZTor4CJ3xKRM-XNUH3gkRaRoqzjomsqLUGUM4L977wlq-xXOtI0BDTtoKaWgTMmEaleMVmmGiwOMgs7uzcQGjBqsFHvs-3MiYWBFknOI1Y3ZsGQ6ssFNbdoThbLnPq-0kB4f9RgB-2_yLnWM6jwTvllT5voYr2-5-NF-QwKgpeFLjwpA-72b2lLDia7QDOJx0SnD4bX06T9NKNp1yeMX0Gr4WCCOGk42FUEZwdmT__GGb5SPAwIde0gxA&smid=share-url

Turns out there’s some pretty passionate hijab wearers right here in America!

dullah mwrote:

I’m sure you have a source for this because no person here would make a such strong sweeping statement like that without knowing what they are talking about, right?

Also, I’m sure you recognize the difference between culture and religion, right?

Well, do YOU have a source on the actual numbers across regions and countries?  And how reliable would those numbers be if there was a source?  Can definitely see that “most” may be more firmly replaced by “many”,  but as long as it applies to “any”, it’s a fucked up system.   

Your other points are spurious.  They are forced.  No choice in the matter.  That some do it willing is irrelevant.  What’s wrong with letting ALL do it willingly? And in a country like Iran, where the religion is so totally embedded in the culture and government, how do YOU separate them out in any meaningful way?

MP Hijab discussion like...

What happened to Tradi's first post? Pesky moderators.

Sarah Zwrote:

This photo has already been debunked as #fakenews.

I am more familiar with a situation in Iran.
Yes, some educated westernized young ladies in Tehran were wearing such clothes.
However most women in Iran were wearing traditional clothes including hijab.
I assume that Afghanistan situation is exactly the same.

BTW one of the girl friends of my son from a medical school started wearing head scarf as a sign of her Muslim identity.
She was not wearing it in high school and college.
I am not sure whether her mother wears a head scarf (I will ask).

One of my former coworkers who moved to Canada from Azerbaijan, where wearing of hijab was forbidden since 1920, also started wearing a head scarf in Canada.  

dullah mwrote:

I’m sure you have a source for this because no person here would make a such strong sweeping statement like that without knowing what they are talking about, right?

Also, I’m sure you recognize the difference between culture and religion, right?

I did make a strong sweeping statement.  Unlike Tradi I do have sources.  

In the US about 43% of muslim women wear a hijab.

Outside of the US between 40% - 55% of muslim women wear a hijab.  

These numbers include countries / areas that have laws requiring women to wear a hijab.  

I understand the difference between culture and religion.  I also understand that religion can impact and be the basis for a group's culture.  

Dustin Bwrote:

What happened to Tradi's first post? Pesky moderators.

A bunch of posts are missing, and they're definitely cherry picked in a bizarre way.  My first post is still up, where I basically say "fuck American culture" and Tradiban's post is gone, where he is basically saying "Let's not say fuck ANY culture, because we might misunderstand it."  I mean, my post is objectively 100% less tolerant than his.  It's just directed at a group (mostly white, conservative Americans) that is currently on the identity politics shit list.  Is this the woke cancel culture I keep hearing about?  It's pretty gross and disturbing.

Maybe this post will get removed?  I'll try and make things more confusing for the moderators; I'm a half-Asian, American born, progressive liberal from California.  I vote blue, down the ticket.  Can't stand Trump.  My dad fled North Korea when he was a teenager, and settled in America.  My mom spent a good part of the 60's at UC Berkeley, as an anti-war protestor.  I have experienced racism, firsthand.  Woke cancel culture, of which selective moderation like the above is an example, is harmful to society.  I fully support the women in Iran and hope this movement grows!  Fuck this Supreme Court!  I am pro ground-up, traditional climbing ethics.  Snake Dike doesn't need any more bolts!  

I'm also turning off MP for a while, this shit is bad for one's head.

SinRopa Dos wrote:

I posted this before, but it just comes down to differences between what is culturally/morally acceptable in one place vs another.  Remember when MP was removing all the pics of women climbing in sports bras because they were too sexy for our delicate sensibilities on this site?

I have to disagree with this. It's not about what's culturally or morally acceptable in different places.  

Take the topless example that Tradi and yourself are so keen on:

Say you're an American woman and you don't have any topless beaches in your state of WI.  You go to a different state where there are topless beaches and go topless on that beach.  This is regional cultural aspect. 

Now say you go to France and go to a toppless beach and go topless on that beach.  Later in your hotel you're arrested by an state government official from WI and forced back to the US for violating our cultural code. That's fascism.  

SinRopa Dos wrote:

Replace the topic of going topless with sex and this can happen to you.  

US federal law makes it a crime for American citizens to have sex with anyone under 18 years old while abroad, even though 30+ US states and many other countries set their age of consent lower.  Meaning, if you’re 18 or older and travel into Canada to hook up with your 17 y/o Canadian boyfriend/girlfriend, even though you’re not breaking any Canadian laws, you can still be tossed in jail upon your return home.

Wouldn’t this be similar to Iran jailing a woman for not wearing a hijab while outside of Iran?  It’s a government projecting morals and enforcing cultural norms on actions taking place outside of their borders.

It's not similar.  

One involves the rape of another person.

The other involves showing your hair.  

Also the law your referencing isn't a US law, it's international law.  

Edit to add:  Point of clarification -  There is a federal US law that  prohibits an American citizen or resident to travel to a foreign country with intent to engage in any form of sexual conduct with a minor (defined as persons under 18 years of age).  This is to stop sex tourism.  It's in response to the international law passed to to stop sex tourism.  

I'm glad to hear Elnaz is safe with family (I hope that's really the case). I'm sure her statement her hijab fell off by accident helped her avoid serious repercussions she would have faced if she said she did it in protest. I think she got her point across without sacrificing her life for it. 

Sarah Zwrote:

 Wearing a Hijab is a religious symbol it is loosely translated to “barrier” the difference here is a government mandating women and only women’s type of dress. The women of Iran don’t want to be forced into religious practices they want to practice them freely and willingly. Yes, some Muslims believe the Burka should be worn and as seen in Afghanistan under Isis rule that is now a mandate. Should the government kill, stone, imprison, or worse women who refuse to comply? Absolutely not. Would I get mad if I saw a topless woman? No, I don’t really care breasts exist to feed children. Would I be bothered by penises hanging out? I don’t know really it might make me feel safer like that dude is really just in it for the sex. Extremists of any religion should not reign prominent in the government. 

Agree Sarah Z. 

Also, I live by the beach in LA and I see uncovered breasts all the time in public. Nobody seems to freak out at all. Not sure what Tradiban's point was. Small correction. The Taliban rules Afghanistan now, not ISIS, which literally stands for  "Islamic State of Iraq and Syria." There IS an Islamic State group in Afghanistan, IS-K, but they tend to be in conflict with the ruling Taliban. Either way, what both groups impose on women is horrible. 

Andrew Ricewrote:

Agree Sarah Z. 

Also, I live by the beach in LA and I see uncovered breasts all the time in public. Nobody seems to freak out at all. Not sure what Tradiban's point was. Small correction. The Taliban rules Afghanistan now, not ISIS, which literally stands for  "Islamic State of Iraq and Syria." There IS an Islamic State group in Afghanistan, IS-K, but they tend to be in conflict with the ruling Taliban. Either way, what both groups impose on women is horrible. 

Funny you should cite LA as your anecdotal source, the heathen capital of the world. In America we call it “Indecent Exposure” and in the city and county of LA topless is illegal.

Point is that we have “immorality laws” in America as well so don’t be too quick to judge another’s culture before you judge your own.

In my analogy, breasts are the stand in for hair. If it helps anyone make the connection instead think of pubic hair. 

Tradibanwrote:

Funny you should cite LA as your anecdotal source, the heathen capital of the world. In America we call it “Indecent Exposure” and in the city and county of LA topless is illegal.

Point is that we have “immorality laws” in America as well so don’t be too quick to judge another’s culture before you judge your own.

In my analogy, breasts are the stand in for hair. If it helps anyone make the connection instead think of pubic hair. 

I'm sorry you're so afraid of boobs. There's help for that.

I'm going to go out on a limb that I've spent significantly more time in the Middle East and in Islamic cultures than you. The obsession with covering women in public isn't about "decency" it's about possession. Women aren't supposed to be sexy in public because some OTHER man might try to steal them from their father or their husband. In Iran, even today, women dress very beautifully and sexy in private. Take off that hijab and you'll be amazed what you will find. Even boobs!

Tradibanwrote:

In America we call it “Indecent Exposure” and in the city and county of LA topless is illegal.

As Tradiban already pointed the US is extremely prudish society.
Many Europeans are puzzled why you are so willing to impose your outdated moral principles on people.
Just an example, American males abroad are a laughing stock on a beach if they wear traditional American swimming trunks. 

Yurywrote: Just an example, American males abroad are a laughing stock on a beach if they wear traditional American swimming trunks. 

Wish I could wear a mankini, I'm just not cool enough I guess

Tradibanwrote:

……Point is…don’t be too quick to judge another’s culture before you judge your own….

I’ve totally lost track of the thread direction, and am now reconsidering my Speedo, but I’m on board with Tradi here.  Let’s just get back to MP fundamentals and judge everyone.  

Andrew Ricewrote:

I'm sorry you're so afraid of boobs. There's help for that.

I'm going to go out on a limb that I've spent significantly more time in the Middle East and in Islamic cultures than you. The obsession with covering women in public isn't about "decency" it's about possession. Women aren't supposed to be sexy in public because some OTHER man might try to steal them from their father or their husband. In Iran, even today, women dress very beautifully and sexy in private. Take off that hijab and you'll be amazed what you will find. Even boobs!

Yes, How do you think your wife would feel if all the women in your office were topless? Or how would you feel if all the men in your wife’s office ran around with their dongs out? Hair can be very sensual you know.

Yurywrote:

American males abroad are a laughing stock on a beach if they wear traditional American swimming trunks. 

They’d laugh even harder seeing my fat ass and tiny dick in a Speedo, trust me

Tradibanwrote:

Funny you should cite LA as your anecdotal source, the heathen capital of the world. In America we call it “Indecent Exposure” and in the city and county of LA topless is illegal.

Point is that we have “immorality laws” in America as well so don’t be too quick to judge another’s culture before you judge your own.

In my analogy, breasts are the stand in for hair. If it helps anyone make the connection instead think of pubic hair. 

We have some crazy laws for sure and instead of changing them we just ignore them. Mainly this happens because politicians are too busy stoking the hate fire and raising money for the next election.

Its funny how your message is attacked somewhat blindly (by some) in a country that is supposed to be the most accepting place on earth. We became terrorists to fight our masters for freedom a few hundred years ago, now we feel entitled enough to play Team America World Police?

I can't help but think that some of the raging progressive types would love to send some MAGA bred kids overseas to fight this and many other battles that don't really affect our lives. War would certainly boost daddies stock in the war machine eh?