How far could you get by Lie Backing in climbing?

So I've been climbing with more static movement recently and a little hesitant to do dynos and deadpoints since a shoulder injury I'm getting over. It's had me thinking how many epic routes could you climb with just static moves, or in this case just liebacking the whole route?

For example devils tower is still on my bucket list and seems like it probably has plenty of routes you could crack climb up nice and controlled, or if you wanted with all laybacking.

What do you think?

I think good opposition strength is super super helpful and way underrated. People love to clown on the 5.12 gym climber doing a crack as  a layback which is admittedly funny. However, at somepoint when the jams are less bomber sometimes all you can do is layback. I am sure the flamers will come, so here are google photo results for brittney gorris crack climbing:

I can be hard to see you gear placements while doing a lie-back.  I've been on plenty of routes where lie-backing the whole thing would be reasonable on TR but very challenging on lead due to the trad placements.  

Probably 5.13 or so before anyone got suspicious, but you should really just tell the truth

Lieback of fly back, that's the spirit! None of that finger locks or a cedar box crap, no sir. Gonna layback the Devils Tower, bottom to top. Please share the video?

Nick Herdegwrote:

For example devils tower is still on my bucket list and seems like it probably has plenty of routes you could crack climb up nice and controlled, or if you wanted with all laybacking.

What do you think?

It's kinda hard to layback and stem at the same time...

Layback on TR is one thing. I could layback all day on TR....Leading while laybacking is waaaay scarier: can't see your placements and its not very chill to take a hand off to place...Most people will do a hybrid: some laybacking by sticking your ass back, but doing a foot jam and a high jam. 

Also, there are certain body types that have a MUCH easier time laybacking. The longer your arm ratio is, the easier your laybacking will be. If you have a 4+ ape index you should be able to cruise a layback no problem. If you have short arms you have to lean much farther forward and negatively move the center of mass over your feet. 

rock climbing wrote:

Can you imagine doing dynos into a finger crack.

There's a boulder that has this at Watson Lake

Nick Herdegwrote:

..For example devils tower is still on my bucket list and seems like it probably has plenty of routes you could crack climb up nice and controlled, or if you wanted with all laybacking.

What do you think?

most of the corners at devils tower are obtuse, relative to the crack (due to the hexagonal shaped columns). in general, laybacking is going to be really hard (ie not-positive) on most of them.  typically you will be stemming and jamming.  there are a few random ones though where laybacking is helpul.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I think good opposition strength is super super helpful and way underrated. People love to clown on the 5.12 gym climber doing a crack as  a layback which is admittedly funny. However, at somepoint when the jams are less bomber sometimes all you can do is layback. I am sure the flamers will come, so here are google photo results for brittney gorris crack climbing:

Jams go from bomber to ehh not that good to shitty flares, to insecure jams, to super insecure jams,… then you lieback. 

I see what you’ve done here…

rock climbing wrote:

All crack climbing is static climbing. Can you imagine doing dynos into a finger crack.

What? People deadpoint for jams all the time.

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

There's the dyno to a chickenwing on astroman and that 5.hard roof problem on Pywiak dome in Tuolumne. 

Do you mean Boa?

rock climbing wrote:

All crack climbing is static climbing. Can you imagine doing dynos into a finger crack.

Wut?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0t2P00SBY_E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMC9Jj64xUo

Kristian Solemwrote:

It's kinda hard to layback and stem at the same time...

There's a "V4" dihedral in the Nears where the left side is a completely glassy slab, and the right is a featured but slightly overhung and narrow (i.e. you can't get your feet out to a very wide stem). The only way I've found to get enough pressure on the left for the foot to stick is to both push off the right side with my right foot, and lieback with hands in the corner.

Though, you're technically correct because "kinda hard" definitely describes it. I say "V4" in quotes because as far as I know, my friend who climbs V11 hasn't gotten it yet, and I certainly don't feel like I've made much progress on it.

The main issue with liebacking is that you need a significant force to be applied constantly to maintain the opposition, even if not moving, and it's hard to alternate the active arm/hand enough to be able to recover and not get pumped, and if you need both engaged to remain in position, then you'll just get pumped even faster. I can stay put on many 5.8/5.9 crack section while jamming for... I don't know, maybe hours really if shaking alternate arms constantly. Stronger climber can do the same on harder stuff too. But I'd be hard pressed to hold a lieback position for the same amount of time on those same sections. I'm sure I could find specific section, where jams are truly terrible, on which I could hold a lieback position longer than I could a jam. But that's the exception, not the rule, and I'm sure that holds true for most climbers, most of the time.

Generally speaking, liebacking feels better on corners ~90 degrees. On obtuse corners, it's hard to find good opposition with the feet and the position feels precarious. On acute corner, you might just be able to have your foot fit the corner directly and get good friction on both sides, which makes for really good feet, making alternative beta a bit of a moot point. If it's NOT a corner, then ideally you want the crack to be really offset (which kinda makes it look like/feel a corner anyways). The crack edge helps too - a really well-defined edge that's easy to grab/crimp makes liebacking a more viable alternative. Obviously, the better the friction on that rock, the better liebacking will feel.

Then liebacking often being an alternative to jamming, of course truly terrible jams makes liebacking feel like a more appealing option. This holds true whether those jams are terrible because the crack makes it so, or your (lack of) jamming technique. Liebacking effectively requires good technique too, but probably less so than jamming. Though you'd be shooting yourself in the foot in the long run if you think that you can make up for poor jam technique by liebacking more. The solidity of your jams improves tremendously with better technique. Less so liebacking.

All that being said, there certainly are sections where it's easier to power thrue on a few lieback moves than jam thrue. Which brings me to the conclusion - liebacking is just a tool. Like all other climbing technics.

As for DT, well has mentioned the corners are typically obtuse, the crack edges aren't that well defined/sharp and the granite can be fairly smooth, so considering previous points you're likely to find liebacking pretty hard.

David Kwrote:

There's a "V4" dihedral in the Nears where the left side is a completely glassy slab, and the right is a featured but slightly overhung and narrow (i.e. you can't get your feet out to a very wide stem). The only way I've found to get enough pressure on the left for the foot to stick is to both push off the right side with my right foot, and lieback with hands in the corner.

Though, you're technically correct because "kinda hard" definitely describes it. I say "V4" in quotes because as far as I know, my friend who climbs V11 hasn't gotten it yet, and I certainly don't feel like I've made much progress on it.

Which route is that? Memory fails me. 

slimwrote:

most of the corners at devils tower are obtuse, relative to the crack (due to the hexagonal shaped columns). in general, laybacking is going to be really hard (ie not-positive) on most of them.  typically you will be stemming and jamming.  there are a few random ones though where laybacking is helpul.

Sweet deal, I generally feel pretty solid with jams and stemming so sounds like devils tower is still in play. Also I agree with the comment that jams are easier on the shoulders generally. I think I am a lankier climber who generally fits liebacking easier but yeah I don't think I could layback the entire devils tower, not without a bunch of takes anyway. 

Nick Herdegwrote:

So I've been climbing with more static movement recently and a little hesitant to do dynos and deadpoints since a shoulder injury I'm getting over. It's had me thinking how many epic routes could you climb with just static moves, or in this case just liebacking the whole route?

For example devils tower is still on my bucket list and seems like it probably has plenty of routes you could crack climb up nice and controlled, or if you wanted with all laybacking.

What do you think?

I think you should just embrace slab climbing.  It can be extremely satisfying and you really don’t use your shoulders at all. for the first 6-7 months after both my shoulder surgeries, all I climbed was slab.  

I watched a guy layback 3 strikes you're out at IC in it's entirety. Not a single jam. Seemed blasphemous