Nose in a day fun to suffer ratio / spray thread

I'm sitting bored in the duldrums of a broken ankle.

Last year I climbed the nose in a day (from sickle) as my first wall in 22.5 hours. I'd say it was 20-30% fun and 70-80% suffer. I think a lot of that had to do with our brutal schedule of Flying into SAC at midnight on Thursday and flying back out on Sunday afternoon. (You can read a full trip report HERE if interested.)

My fitness and experience at the time was:

Generally Onsight 11- in the alpine, and 11+ sport. 

Redpointed 12- sport and on gear. Onsighted 12- sport.

Only climbed 2 days in the valley prior.

I think for the fun to out weigh the suffer, I would want to be at an onsight 11/11+ in the valley, have more experience in the valley, and have a better schedule. Possibly get into that 12 hour zone.

My question is: What was your fitness and experience when you did it, what was your time, and what was your fun to suffer ratio?

Thanks

Ryan Never climbs wrote:

i thought it was pretty fun 

Awesome. What was your fitness and experience?

FWIW I had fun too, it was just more type 2 than type 1 fun and towards the end it was more of a death march 

When I led it in a day in 2009, I started training in January and climbed the route in October. I spent three weeks climbing in the Valley that season.
It was 100% fun!

When I did it in 2018 with Jordan Cannon, I had just gotten off Aurora three days previously and I didn’t realize how tired I was. As a consequence I led only 7 pitches. It was still 100% fun but I was rather disappointed to have contributed so little to the climbing.

Now, at my current age, if I ever do it again, I’ll train specifically for it for at least 3 months with at least a month of that doing big missions in the Valley.

Ryan Never climbs wrote:

had a dozen walls with three of those in a day one being the rnwf of half dome. i micro traxed an el cap day in the lower merced canyon that spring and also spent a few weeks in indian creek.

climbed  the niad  two days after getting down from walling the nose. had a few kinks like a finger/hand pully issue didn’t do the lynn hill but still was blown way by the experience. 20 hours valley to valley with a few hour cat nap atop the east ledges. work was a little rough the next day. 

type one fun the whole time. we managed to snack well and at our block change had lunch. 

 had you had any experiences like that death march category?

even before those early walls i had plenty of type two experiences with many “ never doing that agains” but non of them climbing. well iv been caught in a few thunderstorms so i try and avoid that horror. 

read your TR that’s impressive to just go and huck it on the big stone.

Thanks. I’m relatively new to climbing (around 5 years) and I’ve had some big days, but I think El cap was the hardest thing I’ve ever done physically.

Definitely had plenty of type 2 splitboarding if in the cascades. Summited all the volcanoes, and have had some huge days 25+ mile 10,000 vert days with a lot of breaking trail and schwacking. Also have spent a couple springs in AK hiking heli lines averaging  around 8k a day doing the lion share of breaking trail in thigh deep powder.

I keep rounding back to my schedule, and think that probably made it much more of a sufferfest, as we were both already beat before we left the ground.

But that’s why I’m curious about others experiences.

Thanks for sharing 

I see this a lot in climbing manifested in all sorts of ways - “substitution” - if I perform at this level over here, my ego tells me I should be able to “exchange” my skills into this other thing and perform well.  It’s pretty much always BS and doesn’t work.  

I can name several guys with sub 12 hr times on the Nose who can’t freeclimb much above mid 10.  They love Yosemite and have 100’s of days there doing anything and everything.  I can also name several 5.hard and V.double digit climbers who got their ass kicked and bailed.

You have to respect the investment people have made in the medium if you want to perform like they do.  You also have to respect the learning process of being a beginner at something and suffering a bit for it as you learn.

Which begs the question - if you are so into the NIAD and all it represents, why haven’t you invested more of your time learning the style?

Disagree with Hudon - yes, you probably have to be a fit year-round climber, but I don’t think it takes more than a few weeks to dial yourself back into something you’ve had familiarity with in the past - but it might also take you 5-10 yrs to get to the level of leading all the pitches at his pace.

James Wwrote:

I see this a lot in climbing manifested in all sorts of ways - “substitution” - if I perform at this level over here, my ego tells me I should be able to “exchange” my skills into this other thing and perform well.  It’s pretty much always BS and doesn’t work.  

I can name several guys with sub 12 hr times on the Nose who can’t freeclimb much above mid 10.  They love Yosemite and have 100’s of days there doing anything and everything.  I can also name several 5.hard and V.double digit climbers who got their ass kicked and bailed.

You have to respect the investment people have made in the medium if you want to perform like they do.  You also have to respect the learning process of being a beginner at something and suffering a bit for it as you learn.

Which begs the question - if you are so into the NIAD and all it represents, why haven’t you invested more of your time learning the style?

Disagree with Hudon - yes, you probably have to be a fit year-round climber, but I don’t think it takes more than a few weeks to dial yourself back into something you’ve had familiarity with in the past - but it might also take you 5-10 yrs to get to the level of leading all the pitches at his pace.

I love exposure, and being high off the ground. I learned to trad climb because I wanted to climb the nose. My partner had climbed it close to a dozen times before (all in multi day pushes) He wanted to do it in a day. I wasn’t sure I was ready, (I was planning on a multi day)but he convinced me we’d be fine.

My lack of experience comes from the fact that I have a wife, kid, house, dog and live in WA. I had the opportunity to achieve one of my goals, so I went for it. In a perfect world I’d have much more experience in the valley and a few walls under my belt, but that’s how the chips fell.

I spent the season climbing long granite routes, working on moving and transitioning fast and efficiently. We got it done, and it was an amazing experience.

My post wasn’t meant to whine or complain about how hard it was. I’m simply asking what your experience level was when you did it, what your fitness level was and how much fun you had. That way if I was to do it again, I could draw from others peoples experiences and see what I could do best to improve, and ultimately get that experience I was looking for.

That’s great, but NIAD is style it sounds like neither of you had much experience with - you’re making my point - substitution doesn’t work - your cited grades are nearly irrelevant. The answer to your question is all over the map - fitness, grades, etc.  In the end, your IAD times on Yos walls is going to be the most relevant.

Anyone who is willing to fight for their goal is impressive in my book! Whether that be big wall climbing or spending 50 days working a boulder it’s always fun the read about the fight.

Saign you and the other multipitch lovers of Washington should start making speed records of the multipitches. I don’t know if it would be better training for niad but it would make for fun trip reports!

I think most struggle with the style of climbing the NIAD more than the climbing itself.  If you are confident rope soloing and understand the basics of short fixing and crack jumaring its pretty reasonable to climb it in 12 hours without amazing fitness or skill.  If you want to mostly free, french free and follow without Jumars you better bring your A game.  I climbed the NIAD with Tony Mayse, the crusher from OK.  I had only gotten out 2-3 days in the previous 6 months because of the birth of my son, but was hiking at elevation daily.  I knew the route and had the skills and we climbed it in 12:48 with some mistakes on my part and stomach issues on Tony's.  Tony had done the NIAD over a dozen times and had all the beta dialed. I had a strong base in free climbing and had practiced my skills on several other Yosemite walls, including some IAD.

Funny side story was the year before when I climbed the Nose for the first time with my now Ex, a party showed up at El Cap tower in middle of the night on a NIAD attempt.  They rapped down to the Jardine traverse the next morning before we started up Texas Flake.  About 4 hours later they were still below Eagle ledge stuck at the wide crack as we were traversing to camp 4.  Moral of the story is that if you bring bivy gear you will most likely use it.  El Cap in 2 days is much harder than in one IMO.  Go light!

I find that the best fun:suffer ratio (assuming adequate fitness) happens at less than 16-18 hours on the move. OP certainly has some impressive vert and miles on the resume, but how long were the outings in hours? I can have a 12-14 hour day guiding where my fitness far exceeds the needed capacity for the objective and still feel pretty damn worked, but go out for a 6-8 hour day on my own with more climbing, harder climbing, way more vert/miles, etc. and feel much better at the end of it simply because I was out half as long.

I think I might be more sensitive to that than others, but the sleep/wakefulness literature as it relates to performance seems to support this. Hopefully it's no secret that being awake for 24 hours causes significant cognitive deficits as well as increased perceived exertion and reductions in physical output. These effects start in earnest for most folks around the 18 hour mark. For me that translates into type 2 (or type 3?) fun at that point. But if I have the appropriate fitness and keep it under 18 hours, I'm good to go.

Re: fitness, I think Mark and James seem to be approaching it with similar strategies that just appear different on the surface. To me, something like NIAD is akin to a big alpine day. The amount and pace of the climbing demands a large aerobic capacity--basically a general fitness base. The movement is technical, but you've still gotta do 3000ft of vert. Most climbers don't regularly do big days of climbing, let alone trail running or scrambling or pack carries or alpine traverses. But to have the necessary fitness for the NIAD, it's really not a bad place to start. Mark alludes to this with 3 months of big missions, and James gets at it by folks who climb anything and everything but also put in 5 to 10 years. Some kind of fitness base needs to support the more specific climbing ability required. (And this ignores the specific climbing style in Yosemite. 5.11 limestone isn't going to deliver the specific movement skills for 5.11 granite.)

The other parts are technical and logistical. Technical efficiency is probably the easiest way to reduce time spent on the route. What tactics will be employed? Do you have your transitions dialed for block leading? Will you short fix? Simul? Tag up the rack? Have much have you practiced those things? How good are you at jugging? Lower outs? Free-to-aid and aid-to-free transitions? Etc. If you're not good at aid climbing, that will slow you down. Determining the tactics and being good at the technical skills will help immensely.

Logistically, other big days of just about any kind should really help. How much water do you typically drink during the intended duration on the wall? What food works best for you at that pace for that length of time? Is this stuff you can easily eat out of your pocket? Will you follow in approach shoes? Can you wear your all day shoes for the entire route? What season is it? Will you want an extra layer at some point? Those things will inform what you carry, whether you want to stash anything, how you'll manage energy throughout the day, etc.

I do agree that if you readily onsight 5.10 granite, french free like a boss, and can aid efficiently, you don't need much more than that. I think if you get into your intended 12 hour zone, your fun:suffer ratio will go way up, but even getting it under 18 hours should help.

saign charlesteinwrote:

I think for the fun to out weigh the suffer, I would want to be at an onsight 11/11+ in the valley, have more experience in the valley, and have a better schedule. Possibly get into that 12 hour zone.

My question is: What was your fitness and experience when you did it, what was your time, and what was your fun to suffer ratio?

I don't think it's necessary to onsight 11s in the valley. I onsight 10-, and my partner onsights 10+, and we climbed the NIAD in sub-16 hours while onsighting all the pitches above Lynn Hill traverse. I'd say it was 80% fun, 20% suffer. Definitely helps to eat snacks, stay hydrated, and aid climb efficiently. Salt tablets were nice to have also. 

Don’t forget that I’m far older than any of you and that it takes me longer to get in shape and that I don’t want to struggle up any of it, I want to ramble the whole thing.

Thanks for the replies. There’s some really good insight in there, and the type of info I was hoping for.

The arbitrary 12 hour number I threw out is just what I’m guessing would be a fun pace. I would guess anything over 14-16 would start to be more suffering than fun.

The goal is to get into that flow state, and ride it as long as possible. I lead the first block to camp 4 and was in the flow until the Texas flake, and hit the wall. While my partner was aiding the great roof, I ate and drank a bunch and felt much better. In hindsight grabbing a snack, and drinking more while I was on top of boot waiting for him to jug probably would’ve helped at ton.

I’m also a pretty firm believer that our schedule and lack of sleep had a lot to do with the suffering, and it could’ve been much more enjoyable (and faster) with proper rest.  

a few months back I was discussing tactics for efficiency with a poster on this thread and they said "you don't know shit," so take these comments with a grain of salt, I guess... but here goes.

-as several have mentioned, being able to onsight "xyz grade" generally doesn't have much bearing on your success. Time on valley granite, specifically the nose itself, and proper lead-up (rest, etc) does.

-knowledge of the route. I default to a safer style, IMO, and so I heeded the numerous warnings about how tricky the upper block is (great roof-finish). Only one person told me "christian, it's no trickier than anything on SF, WC, everything is there, it's straightforward." He was absolutely right, and that knowledge is huge for being less conservative and staying full gas, knowing that all the placements are bomber and C1 (assuming the cord is present on changing corners and no jackass has removed them from the first three bolts). I honestly can't fathom how you can pop pieces on the upper section, with totems and offsets. I did my first trip up the nose yesterday and burned at least 30+ min being conservative. No need, it's safe climbing, IMO.

-The single greatest benefit in your case seems to be reps. Without actual reps on EC, there doesn't seem to be opportunity to work out the specific kinks to the route in question. For instance, in one dolt run, my partner for niad and I learned about 9 different things that we changed for the actual run to the top. Figuring these things out can save you far more than being "a little bit fitter" ever will. Even something as simple as which locking biner to use for short fixing was calc'd to save us 2-4 minutes. extrapolate that sort of savings over 6-8 diff processes and you're closing in on an hour saved, without putting out any effort, simply figuring it out by experience. You mentioned standing on boot, waiting for partner to jug. That's 5+ min right there (partner should simul the bolt ladder to 3rd to last bolt while you climb boot, while keeping you on belay). Another example - saving weight on cams is great but having a triple rack can eliminate the need to tag, which is a ~90s process each time. Is the extra 1lb of gear going to cause 90s of fatigue per pitch that you otherwise would have had to tag gear? (for reference, black-green totem is 1lb. Black-Orange is 1.5lbs, not counting racking biners). I can go from p1 to top of p7 on a triple without tagging gear (ignore the fact that you can get gear at end of 5 if you meet up there). I feel that many of these things are intuitive, but they're actually not, it's only b/c I had the luxury of dozens of laps on the early pitches of the nose to figure it out (before I tried to go to the top).

-my fitness was shite, I think it matters much less than you might think, you just have to be willing to sweat a little bit and stay on the gas for extended periods of time. Last 4 pitches I was out of water and had been going for 9hrs but I didn't suffer at all, b/c of the knowledge that the top was an hour away and I could rest then. As long as you're not completely out of shape and overweight, you should be able to handle it just fine (already proven you can handle 24 pitches on little sleep, right?)

TL, DR: James W pretty much sums up what seems to be best practice(s) for doing an efficient niad.

What do you mean you did el cap in a day from sickle. Sounds like you did some of el cap in a day. 

Doing the Nose from sickle counts as “in a day” these days ?

Having never been on the route before my partner and I got up the Nose in 19.5 hours. We had climbed together a couple times, but had known each other for a number of years. Still in hindsight our communication could've been better (we did the Salathe 2 years later and it was super smooth and type 1 the entire time). Prior to traveling to the valley for the NIAD we were clocking in regular 20+ pitch days in LCC (only 1 or 2 days together though), which is somewhat comparable to Valley style granite. LCC is slick, schmoozey, flared, some steep stuff, but mainly funky and flared. We also had some valley experience prior to the Nose as well, like RNWF of HD, bunch of the classic moderates etc, plus a bunch of walls in Zion (w/ separate partners). 

I think our NIAD was type 1 fun until about the glowering spot or just above after that classic wide hands corner. In hindsight we should've taken a 15 min break after the Pancake pitch to refuel as that would've fueled the tanks to finish in under 16 hours. Instead we each bonked hard after only leading 3 or so pitches each in the top stretch. So switching back over from jugging to leading was a real time suck. 

All in all I would do the NIAD again. If I do it again I think with the lessons learned I am confident we could come in at or under 12 hours.