Mixed Routes (bolts plus gear required): Inequitable, Annoying, Awesome?

Jake Joneswrote:

Doesn't "IMHO" mean "in my humble opinion"?  Seems like a misallocation of that acronym based on the lack of humility in your post.

Are you questioning my humility!?!

Young feller, I *invented* humility. Humility is pouring from my pores. I have humility both up the Yin Yang *and* the Wazoo. Humility is my middle name. No one does humility better than me.

Anyhoo, as far as trying to nuance in ethical justifications for rap-bolting a Trad route; or simply trying to claim a higher sense of ethics by using LNT as a reason why a route has 8 bolts and 2 separate gear placements instead of just 10 bolts, I will just end the debate right here:

Drill/chisel in gear placements where a bolt would go. That is more in line with LNT than placing a bolt. You aren't leaving hardware behind. You have eliminated any possible confusion for the unracked leader. You get the gear-porn arousal that Traddies are addicted to. Now that everyone is aware of this tactic, it makes leaving a bolt behind on a gear-protectable route absolutely unacceptable. 

Within the context of degrading the ethics of Trad by rap-bolting in the first place.

Jake Joneswrote:

Doesn't "IMHO" mean "in my humble opinion"?  Seems like a misallocation of that acronym based on the lack of humility in your post.

“In my honest opinion“ is how I have always used it. 

It would be more equitable to have permadraws on each bolt, wouldn't it? 

Equity can be used as justification for a lot of poor arguments in an activity like climbing, or any outdoorsy sport where we choose to challenge ourselves against nature. It's impossible to make any route perfectly equitable to every human who may one day want to climb it, without ruining it, so I say just aim for a quality experience that takes into account local ethics, LNT, and fitting with the rest of the crag. Basically, it's your FA to do with what you choose. Save the equity concerns for where it really matters... healthcare, education, housing, etc. Keep climbing challenging (mentally and physically), exciting, diverse, welcoming, etc. 

I like mixed routes, sometimes, and depending on the context. 

When I was learning to place gear and getting comfortable on the sharp end doing so, I sought out routes with a mix of gear and bolts. So from my perspective mixed gear/bolt routes are quite the opposite of gatekeeping and can serve as a natural stepping stone for someone looking to move beyond climbing strictly bolt protected climbs.

3 pages in and no one has mentioned the answer to this thread: Beware of Nesting Egos.

Mixed routes for the win! Gear is meant for the crack-sis

Go Back to Super Topowrote:

Huh? Not an excuse 

 A bold lead needs no excuse. Judging by your reply, you know nothing about going ground up.

Austin Donisanwrote:

In a sport area they're dumb. In a trad area they're great.

A question I have, and this seems to be common in basalt climbing, is how do people feel about bolts vs requiring "special" gear. What if a line goes on all gear if you use ballnuts and micronuts for a section, but those could just be replaced with a bolt or two?

Micronuts are for the bedroom, I would just bolt it. (I know what crag you are talking about)

Jay Crewwrote:

 A bold lead needs no excuse. Judging by your reply, you know nothing about going ground up.

What does a route being established ground up have to do with my original post? Generally speaking I don't see a reason for any mixed route to be rated R or X. Once you start adding bolts to the equation you are doing so to add safety, therefore I see no reason a mixed route should be R or X. We aren't talking about aid routes, we are talking (generally) about routes that can be free'd mostly on gear sans a few spots that require bolts for whatever reason, generally safety.

we all make mistakes on lead. just go back and fix them. you drilled holes in the rock. you made a permanent change to the rock. Do a good job or give up the  drill.

Beta Slavewrote:

"Mixed" routes are by definition Trad routes. If you need to place gear, at all, you are Trad climbing.

Where's that one dude? You know, the guy that says if a climb has a bolt on it's Sport?  Even B-Y was sport in his book, iirc.

I like the percentage of crack method of determining whether to develop a mixed line or go all bolts. Personally, I avoid mixed lines if I am out sport climbing. In all likelihood, I won't even have my rack with me and I won't bring a small rack to do one or two mixed routes at a sport crag. I will just toprope them from another anchor or skip them.

We have a basalt area in Golden that has plenty of splitter cracks you can lead on gear mixed in with sport routes. The good crack lines just have bolted anchors. But the other lines are pure sport bolted. I prefer that setup, as their is no ambiguity as to what gear you need. If it's a nice crack that goes from ground to anchor and has zero bolts on the way, it's trad. I'm fairly certain there are no mixed lines there.

Go Back to Super Topowrote:

What does a route being established ground up have to do with my original post? Generally speaking I don't see a reason for any mixed route to be rated R or X. Once you start adding bolts to the equation you are doing so to add safety, therefore I see no reason a mixed route should be R or X. We aren't talking about aid routes, we are talking (generally) about routes that can be free'd mostly on gear sans a few spots that require bolts for whatever reason, generally safety.

like I said, you don't know anything about going ground up

Go Back to Super Topowrote:

What does a route being established ground up have to do with my original post? Generally speaking I don't see a reason for any mixed route to be rated R or X. Once you start adding bolts to the equation you are doing so to add safety, therefore I see no reason a mixed route should be R or X. We aren't talking about aid routes, we are talking (generally) about routes that can be free'd mostly on gear sans a few spots that require bolts for whatever reason, generally safety.

You ever come out to Northern California, hit me up. I’ll put you on the sharp end of one one of the many mixed projects I have in mind. Going ground up (trad style) and you’ll quickly find the ignorance in your statement.

Not to be rude or put you down, but Jay’s absolutely right. You know nothing about going ground up. 

and you guys sound like you have your egos so involved you shouldn't own drills. 

Has nothing to do with egos. It’s actually quite humbling and brings you back to a clear sense of reality. The ego, more often is quickly obliterated when one finds themself in a runnout situation on unfamiliar new terrain. The runnout itself usually being a product of pure necessity rather than an ego stroking event. Those types, usually don’t last long in the game and resort to the real chest thumping act of dropping a rope down a wall from which to do their pissing. That way they can show the world their great creation and stroke the ego without having to come to grips with the reality they didn’t have the skills to challenge the rock on its own terms. Those are the types who shouldn’t own drills my friend. And everybody deep down knows it. 

Yup, no ego there at all 

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

Has nothing to do with egos. It’s actually quite humbling and brings you back to a clear sense of reality. The ego, more often is quickly obliterated when one finds themself in a runnout situation on unfamiliar new terrain. The runnout itself usually being a product of pure necessity rather than an ego stroking event. Those types, usually don’t last long in the game and resort to the real chest thumping act of dropping a rope down a wall from which to do their pissing. That way they can show the world their great creation and stroke the ego without having to come to grips with the reality they didn’t have the skills to challenge the rock on its own terms. Those are the types who shouldn’t own drills my friend. And everybody deep down knows it. 

I was with you guys about how runouts make sense and have a place on routes done ground up, but this post fully went off the rails.  There are some incredibly fun and beautiful routes that were developed top down.  Your post comes off as just as absurdly dogmatic as the ones your arguing against. 

You leave Ego at the door when you venture Ground-up on unfamiliar terrain. Ego is not the source of individual accomplishment. It often reemerges as post-ascent spray though.

Documenting the FA ground up or on rap is the definition of ego. If you do something for it’s purity you don’t need to document S***.

Max Tepferwrote:

I was with you guys about how runouts make sense and have a place on routes done ground up, but this post fully went off the rails.  There are some incredibly fun and beautiful routes that were developed top down.  Your post comes off as just as absurdly dogmatic as the ones your arguing against. 

You’re reading too much into that statement as if it were black and white.  Perhaps my fault for using too much brevity.  The style in which a route is done has many factors which contribute to that decision, regardless of being top down or ground up.  You are correct that there are a lot of great top down routes and many of them were done that way (top down) out of necessity as well (excessive dirt, choss etc.). My scenario in the latter part of my statement was but one single example of many and not meant to be applied to every route being done top down. That is obviously not the case.

That being said, my personal opinion is that I find ground up routes and runnout routes far more creative, which must be exicuted with a higher level of precision.  I like that, but not everybody does.