overheard at the crag: post it

slimwrote:

not necessarily at the crag, but at a couple gyms i have been to i have heard employees say something odd during the belay test - "don't say on belay until they clip the first bolt because they aren't on belay yet."  WTF??? this isn't a good habit to be teaching...

It's true though. If you are not belaying them, then they are not on belay. You are spotting them. I don't know anyone who says "On Belay" when they don't have their partner on belay. I think it's bad practice to miscommunication this. How many people have fallen from anchors due to miscommunication?

Mike zzzwrote:

It's true though. If you are not belaying them, then they are not on belay. You are spotting them. I don't know anyone who says "On Belay" when they don't have their partner on belay.

So if you are at the anchor of a multipitch route, and you tell your partner they are on belay and they unclip the anchor to move on but stumble and fall off the ledge, and you catch them… they weren’t on belay?

Or they start up the next pitch and fall before getting a piece in, and fall past the anchor, and you catch them… they weren’t on belay?

Years ago a guy was showing us a spyderco knife, guy flipped it open quick, then went to close it.  But he took a bad angle closing against his thigh and actually stuck himself, shoved it about 2” straight in.   Was crazy, we busted his chops for years after that, honestly he prolly never lived it down.  

Rob Deaneswrote:

I have an "overheard at the crag moments: climbing gym employee edition" story, from one of the sister gyms you're talking about no less!  A friend was using an ATC Guide in "low friction mode" and an employee told them their belay device was backwards and needed to be turned around. 

omg. that is an oof. yeah....yeah. yeah, i can see that. yeah, yep, yes; i think i could probably even guess the location & employee age! [something something "but we sell them" something "boulderers"]*

*[love where i work though, genuinely. and boulderers. i chide with love.]

slimwrote:

not necessarily at the crag, but at a couple gyms i have been to i have heard employees say something odd during the belay test - "don't say on belay until they clip the first bolt because they aren't on belay yet."  WTF??? this isn't a good habit to be teaching...

This is 100% best practice for leading the first pitch of a climb. You still do your partner checks, and you tell your partner you are ready to belay so that they know you are paying attention. However, the leader is not actually on belay until they clip the first bolt or place the first piece. If they fall before the first bolt/piece, you can't use the belay device to catch them because there is no anchor in the system. You can give the a spot, but the rope and your belay device are useless until there is an anchor in the system. In the same vein, if your partner is down-leading and unclipping as they down-climb, you say "off belay" when they unclip the last piece, and then you spot them until they reach the ground.

The reason to do this is for the leader's awareness and clear communication. You don't want them to have a false sense of security that they will be caught by the rope if they fall between the lowest bolt and the ground. They are not on belay in that space. This is especially important for new leaders in a gym setting. It's a reminder that they are bouldering until that first bolt is clipped. 

phylp phylpwrote:

So if you are at the anchor of a multipitch route, and you tell your partner they are on belay and they unclip the anchor to move on but stumble and fall off the ledge, and you catch them… they weren’t on belay?

Or they start up the next pitch and fall before getting a piece in, and fall past the anchor, and you catch them… they weren’t on belay?

We're only talking about the first pitch of a climb where no anchor is yet in the system. 

L Kapwrote:

This is 100% best practice for leading the first pitch of a sport climb. You still do your partner checks, and you tell your partner you are ready to belay so that they know you are paying attention. However, the leader is not actually on belay until they clip the first bolt. If they fall before the first bolt, you can't use the belay device to catch them because there is no anchor in the system. You can give the a spot, but the rope and your belay device are useless until there is an anchor in the system. In the same vein, if your partner is down-leading and unclipping as they down-climb, you say "off belay" when they unclip the last piece, and then you spot them until they reach the ground.

The reason to do this is for the leader's awareness and clear communication. You don't want them to have a false sense of security that they will be caught by the rope if they fall between the lowest bolt and the ground. They are not on belay in that space. 

IMO that's also exactly why someone administering a belay test shouldn't make that correction unless it's during a lead belay test specifically--for TR belaying it'll just confuse the tester if they're new belaying & belayer-side climbing commands. i personally wouldn't mention it unless my tester specifically had asked about the differences between lead and TR belaying, or had expressed interest in leading, as it's out of the realm for toprope belay proficiency. one of those "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" deals if it's introduced too early, nevermind in a gym setting

Belaying  describes what the belayer is doing.

A climber looking at a ground fall can still be on belay.

L Kap wrote:

That's right. TR belaying is different. With a TR, you already have an anchor in the system, so the climber is on belay as soon as the belayer sets up, takes the slack out of the system, and commits to paying attention. There's no reason to say anything about the first bolt if they're not leading.  

exactly. i wonder if that commenter overheard a lead belay test and just called it a belay test as shorthand--because in which case, i completely agree with you, the test administrator made the right call. otherwise i would definitely give a side-glance "???" to a coworker administering a belay test [ie TR belaying, in my gym at least they're just called 'belay tests', as they're prerequisite to everything else] and giving that info/making that 'correction', hehe. no need to mention bolts when your climber isn't using em

Consistent process and procedure, and KISS help keep everyone safe. Changing meanings is not what is needed, rather a discussion about hazards at each climb.

The climber may be un protected before the  first clip, but they should be on belay, with all the attention that is expected from the belayer including spotting, rope handling and communication.

A climber is on belay as soon as the belay system is verified to be closed and working. Whether someone began climbing or even further, clipped a piece, is irrelevant. 

To those saying it's better for clear communication not to say 'on belay' until the first piece is clipped, how do you communicate to your climber that it's safe for them to begin climbing and start clipping pieces? I just say belay is on, what more does a climber need to know? Do you often find yourself climbing and forgetting whether you've clipped yet?

Just seems kind of silly. The climber knows if he clipped or not. He doesn't need his belayer to immediately remind him. However, it's nice to know that before you begin to climb you're actually connected to a rope in a verified belay system 

T Lego wrote:

seriously do we seriously have to discuss this

seriously

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

seriously do we seriously have to discuss this

seriously

Pedantry is the purpose of the internet.

What about on the second or later pitch of a climb, where the leader has not clipped, but the belayer is tied to the station. Is the leader on belay? 

What if the leader passes a ledge, like a really big one, and keeps climbing, that is the same risk as a ground fall before the first bolt, and in fact the same ground! Is the leader on belay then?

Good heavens, make another thread then.

overheard on MP: worthless and pedantic nitpicky discussions about completely irrelevant things

Noah Betzwrote:

overheard on MP: worthless and pedantic nitpicky discussions about completely irrelevant things

Your first time here? 

In both cases the employee said "you can't say on belay until after you clip the first piece." Calling this the 100% best practice?. ..  Hmmm.... Picture scrambling up to an exposed ledge with a belay bolt, your belayer clips in, and you ask " on belay?"  " no can do my friend, but i can spot you until you claw your way up to that first piece.. " lolz...

First, you should be letting your partner know that, yeah, you are ready to belay and they can climb. Second, this doesn't translate well to multipitch climbing or climbing a first pitch in an exposed situation.  Why complicate things by trying to create unnecessary situational variations.

slimwrote:

In both cases the employee said "you can't say on belay until after you clip the first piece." Calling this the 100% best practice?. ..  Hmmm.... Picture scrambling up to an exposed ledge with a belay bolt, your belayer clips in, and you ask " on belay?"  " no can do my friend, but i can spot you until you claw your way up to that first piece.. " lolz...

First, you should be letting your partner know that, yeah, you are ready to belay and they can climb. Second, this doesn't translate well to multipitch climbing or climbing a first pitch in an exposed situation.  Why complicate things by trying to create unnecessary situational variations.

If your belayer is anchored to the wall by a belay bolt, then you have an anchor in the system and the belay is on as soon as your belayer is set up and ready. The rope and belay device are actually protecting you from the start of the pitch in this scenario. They're protecting you from the long fall off the exposed ledge. The same is true in a multi-pitch situation where the belayer is on the anchor.  

The context here is that someone overheard this during what I assume was a lead belay test at a gym, and thought it was a ridiculous thing to teach. However, it is long-established practice. It's what I was taught 20 years ago by mentors and at my gym, and what many climbing schools and gyms continue to teach today. If it doesn't work for you, that's your business. The point is to be able to evaluate whether the rope and belay are doing anything for your safety. If you are clipped into nothing, the answer is always resoundingly no. 

T Legowrote:

Do you often find yourself climbing and forgetting whether you've clipped yet?

Just seems kind of silly. The climber knows if he clipped or not. He doesn't need his belayer to immediately remind him.

Don't be so sure!

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/117786379/forgetting-to-clip-bolts