overheard at the crag: post it

L Kap wrote:

That's right. TR belaying is different. With a TR, you already have an anchor in the system, so the climber is on belay as soon as the belayer sets up, takes the slack out of the system, and commits to paying attention. There's no reason to say anything about the first bolt if they're not leading.  

exactly. i wonder if that commenter overheard a lead belay test and just called it a belay test as shorthand--because in which case, i completely agree with you, the test administrator made the right call. otherwise i would definitely give a side-glance "???" to a coworker administering a belay test [ie TR belaying, in my gym at least they're just called 'belay tests', as they're prerequisite to everything else] and giving that info/making that 'correction', hehe. no need to mention bolts when your climber isn't using em

Consistent process and procedure, and KISS help keep everyone safe. Changing meanings is not what is needed, rather a discussion about hazards at each climb.

The climber may be un protected before the  first clip, but they should be on belay, with all the attention that is expected from the belayer including spotting, rope handling and communication.

A climber is on belay as soon as the belay system is verified to be closed and working. Whether someone began climbing or even further, clipped a piece, is irrelevant. 

To those saying it's better for clear communication not to say 'on belay' until the first piece is clipped, how do you communicate to your climber that it's safe for them to begin climbing and start clipping pieces? I just say belay is on, what more does a climber need to know? Do you often find yourself climbing and forgetting whether you've clipped yet?

Just seems kind of silly. The climber knows if he clipped or not. He doesn't need his belayer to immediately remind him. However, it's nice to know that before you begin to climb you're actually connected to a rope in a verified belay system 

T Lego wrote:

seriously do we seriously have to discuss this

seriously

Daniel Chode Rider wrote:

seriously do we seriously have to discuss this

seriously

Pedantry is the purpose of the internet.

What about on the second or later pitch of a climb, where the leader has not clipped, but the belayer is tied to the station. Is the leader on belay? 

What if the leader passes a ledge, like a really big one, and keeps climbing, that is the same risk as a ground fall before the first bolt, and in fact the same ground! Is the leader on belay then?

Good heavens, make another thread then.

overheard on MP: worthless and pedantic nitpicky discussions about completely irrelevant things

Noah Betz wrote:

overheard on MP: worthless and pedantic nitpicky discussions about completely irrelevant things

Your first time here? 

In both cases the employee said "you can't say on belay until after you clip the first piece." Calling this the 100% best practice?. ..  Hmmm.... Picture scrambling up to an exposed ledge with a belay bolt, your belayer clips in, and you ask " on belay?"  " no can do my friend, but i can spot you until you claw your way up to that first piece.. " lolz...

First, you should be letting your partner know that, yeah, you are ready to belay and they can climb. Second, this doesn't translate well to multipitch climbing or climbing a first pitch in an exposed situation.  Why complicate things by trying to create unnecessary situational variations.

slim wrote:

In both cases the employee said "you can't say on belay until after you clip the first piece." Calling this the 100% best practice?. ..  Hmmm.... Picture scrambling up to an exposed ledge with a belay bolt, your belayer clips in, and you ask " on belay?"  " no can do my friend, but i can spot you until you claw your way up to that first piece.. " lolz...

First, you should be letting your partner know that, yeah, you are ready to belay and they can climb. Second, this doesn't translate well to multipitch climbing or climbing a first pitch in an exposed situation.  Why complicate things by trying to create unnecessary situational variations.

If your belayer is anchored to the wall by a belay bolt, then you have an anchor in the system and the belay is on as soon as your belayer is set up and ready. The rope and belay device are actually protecting you from the start of the pitch in this scenario. They're protecting you from the long fall off the exposed ledge. The same is true in a multi-pitch situation where the belayer is on the anchor.  

The context here is that someone overheard this during what I assume was a lead belay test at a gym, and thought it was a ridiculous thing to teach. However, it is long-established practice. It's what I was taught 20 years ago by mentors and at my gym, and what many climbing schools and gyms continue to teach today. If it doesn't work for you, that's your business. The point is to be able to evaluate whether the rope and belay are doing anything for your safety. If you are clipped into nothing, the answer is always resoundingly no. 

T Lego wrote:

Do you often find yourself climbing and forgetting whether you've clipped yet?

Just seems kind of silly. The climber knows if he clipped or not. He doesn't need his belayer to immediately remind him.

Don't be so sure!

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/117786379/forgetting-to-clip-bolts

slim wrote:

In both cases the employee said "you can't say on belay until after you clip the first piece." Calling this the 100% best practice?. ..  Hmmm.... Picture scrambling up to an exposed ledge with a belay bolt, your belayer clips in, and you ask " on belay?"  " no can do my friend, but i can spot you until you claw your way up to that first piece.. " lolz...

First, you should be letting your partner know that, yeah, you are ready to belay and they can climb. Second, this doesn't translate well to multipitch climbing or climbing a first pitch in an exposed situation.  Why complicate things by trying to create unnecessary situational variations.

it's the difference between "in practice" vs in gym proficiency testing settings at the end of the day, as goofy as it may be

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/121866761/what-do-you-mean-when-you-say-on-belay

Move it over to the new thread. Thanks.

Isaac Mann-Silverman wrote:

Pedantry is the purpose of the internet.

The internet is for porn. Pedantry is just a very popular kink.

Ryan Wood wrote:

Classic. Took a buddy of mine out to Joshua Tree. He sends up to 5.12+ in the gym. Couldn’t muster anything above 5.7 at Josh.

His final comment as we sat at Pie for the People after: “Outdoor climbing is fucking dumb, the gym is so much better.”

wait im confused, do people actually think like this? i havent climbed in joshua tree or gunks so im sure i would definitely be humbled if i went there, but ive sent a few 11- inside and got my first 10a onsight this week, and have led multiple tens outside. not saying theyve been pretty or theyve all been clean, but ive gotten up them. i thought it was pretty much just the same for everyone else ? like you’re probably not climbing at your max indoor grade but that makes sense. 

Not my story but was told by a friend. Watching someone come off a dog draw and back onto the rope, loudly:

"I'm coming on you" 

Mary Elizabeth Beckwith wrote:

wait im confused, do people actually think like this? i havent climbed in joshua tree or gunks so im sure i would definitely be humbled if i went there, but ive sent a few 11- inside and got my first 10a onsight this week, and have led multiple tens outside. not saying theyve been pretty or theyve all been clean, but ive gotten up them. i thought it was pretty much just the same for everyone else ? like you’re probably not climbing at your max indoor grade but that makes sense. 

Depends on the gyms, the climbs, the grades. Who cares. Sometimes people get spanked when they first climb outside if they are used to the gym but a lot of people like to puff up their chest and over emphasize the difference. I've seen this be especially common with people that climb exclusively moderates outside in areas with weird styles (jtree, voo, Seneca, anything with lots of friction).

Fwiw I climb 3-4 letter grades harder outside than inside. 

“where are the jugs???!!!” 

said by me, on a 10a that the final section going to the anchors was more like 10d. was losing my shit but still made it to the anchors after a couple whips

"I'm kind of hung over and i had a BANG energy on an empty stomach so I probably won't send this" - 30 seconds after approaching a 5.9 wit da squad