overheard at the crag: post it

phylp phylp wrote:

Don’t worry about blowing my mind. I was taking psychedelics 20 years before you were born. 

Profile says ""69 years old"... so when you were 11?

Man, the 60s really were a different time.

Petsfed 00 wrote:

Profile says ""69 years old"... so when you were 11?

Man, the 60s really were a different time.

Haha!  I knew you were going to get me on that!  I was waiting for it.  It was definitely poetic License on my part.  But "20 years before" just sounded so much more lyrical than "17 years before".

Just from my perspective, the late 60s was actually the time it was the easiest to get many "recreational" drugs.  Very easy to get hallucinogens, quaaludes, speed, opiates, yellow jackets.  You may not know this but in the 60s, Robitussin cough syrup, available over the counter, contained codeine.  In the 70s, authorities cracked down and many things became harder to get.  Some things like cocaine became easier to get.  But once I started college in 1970, I stopped taking all (almost all) drugs, so it didn't matter to me.

Anyway, I did enjoy your comment about unclipping the tags, it made me laugh, so I tried to make you laugh back.  Hope I succeeded.

Spinsser H wrote:

What was your response? (Just in case I get asked that same question.....)

i just explained that in-ground anchors are a trip hazard. which, i'm sure isn't the actual reason, but i can totally see myself eating the mat after stumbling on one if they existed in my particular gym. i added a cute aside about how we love giving our customers a workout....somehow rolled a nat 20 and she took it in stride & chuckled.

Erroll M wrote:

i just explained that in-ground anchors are a trip hazard. which, i'm sure isn't the actual reason, but i can totally see myself eating the mat after stumbling on one if they existed in my particular gym. i added a cute aside about how we love giving our customers a workout....somehow rolled a nat 20 and she took it in stride & chuckled.

Thank you for answering.

That is definitely something that I would ask about if I saw.

Spinsser H wrote:

Thank you for answering.

That is definitely something that I would ask about if I saw.

of course. now that i think on it, my climbing gym's sister locations in the cities over don't have in-ground anchors either, and those places are much, much larger.

if i'm being honest, i didn't realize kettlebells-as-anchors wasn't the norm these days. and aren't chunky 40-lb kettlebells more of a trip hazard for a belayer & gym patron than a floor bolted U-anchor??? what is even the logic?? i think i just inadvertently turned myself into an "overheard at the crag moments: climbing gym employee edition".

Guy at the crag on a classic 5.9 warmup places a low first piece of gear and then proceeds to run it out a few feet, he then whips and decks pretty hard from about 10-15 feet up. After his deck he switches to full expedition mode and aids, takes, and screams his way up to about the halfway point of the climb where he decides to hang and take a long break. During this break he calls down to his party of equally inexperienced climbing partners "you guys should totally get on this climb after me, its really chill". 

At Index? What's the climb?

Erroll M wrote:

of course. now that i think on it, my climbing gym's sister locations in the cities over don't have in-ground anchors either, and those places are much, much larger.

if i'm being honest, i didn't realize kettlebells-as-anchors wasn't the norm these days. and aren't chunky 40-lb kettlebells more of a trip hazard for a belayer & gym patron than a floor bolted U-anchor??? what is even the logic?? i think i just inadvertently turned myself into an "overheard at the crag moments: climbing gym employee edition".

I have an "overheard at the crag moments: climbing gym employee edition" story, from one of the sister gyms you're talking about no less!  A friend was using an ATC Guide in "low friction mode" and an employee told them their belay device was backwards and needed to be turned around. 

not necessarily at the crag, but at a couple gyms i have been to i have heard employees say something odd during the belay test - "don't say on belay until they clip the first bolt because they aren't on belay yet."  WTF??? this isn't a good habit to be teaching...

slim wrote:

not necessarily at the crag, but at a couple gyms i have been to i have heard employees say something odd during the belay test - "don't say on belay until they clip the first bolt because they aren't on belay yet."  WTF??? this isn't a good habit to be teaching...

What's your objection to this? There's nothing a belayer can do, other than spot, before the first bolt is clipped.  

slim wrote:

not necessarily at the crag, but at a couple gyms i have been to i have heard employees say something odd during the belay test - "don't say on belay until they clip the first bolt because they aren't on belay yet."  WTF??? this isn't a good habit to be teaching...

Usually when someone asks about the belay prior to the first bolt/piece I’ll tell them that the rope is just there to help find their body. It’s funny because it’s true.

slim wrote:

not necessarily at the crag, but at a couple gyms i have been to i have heard employees say something odd during the belay test - "don't say on belay until they clip the first bolt because they aren't on belay yet."  WTF??? this isn't a good habit to be teaching...

I agree with you Slim, because in two words it tells the climber that you have checked your belay system and it is set up properly.  As a climber, whether you then go 10 feet or forty feet to your first placement is irrelevant.

slim wrote:

not necessarily at the crag, but at a couple gyms i have been to i have heard employees say something odd during the belay test - "don't say on belay until they clip the first bolt because they aren't on belay yet."  WTF??? this isn't a good habit to be teaching...

It's true though. If you are not belaying them, then they are not on belay. You are spotting them. I don't know anyone who says "On Belay" when they don't have their partner on belay. I think it's bad practice to miscommunication this. How many people have fallen from anchors due to miscommunication?

Mike zzz wrote:

It's true though. If you are not belaying them, then they are not on belay. You are spotting them. I don't know anyone who says "On Belay" when they don't have their partner on belay.

So if you are at the anchor of a multipitch route, and you tell your partner they are on belay and they unclip the anchor to move on but stumble and fall off the ledge, and you catch them… they weren’t on belay?

Or they start up the next pitch and fall before getting a piece in, and fall past the anchor, and you catch them… they weren’t on belay?

Years ago a guy was showing us a spyderco knife, guy flipped it open quick, then went to close it.  But he took a bad angle closing against his thigh and actually stuck himself, shoved it about 2” straight in.   Was crazy, we busted his chops for years after that, honestly he prolly never lived it down.  

Rob Deanes wrote:

I have an "overheard at the crag moments: climbing gym employee edition" story, from one of the sister gyms you're talking about no less!  A friend was using an ATC Guide in "low friction mode" and an employee told them their belay device was backwards and needed to be turned around. 

omg. that is an oof. yeah....yeah. yeah, i can see that. yeah, yep, yes; i think i could probably even guess the location & employee age! [something something "but we sell them" something "boulderers"]*

*[love where i work though, genuinely. and boulderers. i chide with love.]

slim wrote:

not necessarily at the crag, but at a couple gyms i have been to i have heard employees say something odd during the belay test - "don't say on belay until they clip the first bolt because they aren't on belay yet."  WTF??? this isn't a good habit to be teaching...

This is 100% best practice for leading the first pitch of a climb. You still do your partner checks, and you tell your partner you are ready to belay so that they know you are paying attention. However, the leader is not actually on belay until they clip the first bolt or place the first piece. If they fall before the first bolt/piece, you can't use the belay device to catch them because there is no anchor in the system. You can give the a spot, but the rope and your belay device are useless until there is an anchor in the system. In the same vein, if your partner is down-leading and unclipping as they down-climb, you say "off belay" when they unclip the last piece, and then you spot them until they reach the ground.

The reason to do this is for the leader's awareness and clear communication. You don't want them to have a false sense of security that they will be caught by the rope if they fall between the lowest bolt and the ground. They are not on belay in that space. This is especially important for new leaders in a gym setting. It's a reminder that they are bouldering until that first bolt is clipped. 

phylp phylp wrote:

So if you are at the anchor of a multipitch route, and you tell your partner they are on belay and they unclip the anchor to move on but stumble and fall off the ledge, and you catch them… they weren’t on belay?

Or they start up the next pitch and fall before getting a piece in, and fall past the anchor, and you catch them… they weren’t on belay?

We're only talking about the first pitch of a climb where no anchor is yet in the system. 

L Kap wrote:

This is 100% best practice for leading the first pitch of a sport climb. You still do your partner checks, and you tell your partner you are ready to belay so that they know you are paying attention. However, the leader is not actually on belay until they clip the first bolt. If they fall before the first bolt, you can't use the belay device to catch them because there is no anchor in the system. You can give the a spot, but the rope and your belay device are useless until there is an anchor in the system. In the same vein, if your partner is down-leading and unclipping as they down-climb, you say "off belay" when they unclip the last piece, and then you spot them until they reach the ground.

The reason to do this is for the leader's awareness and clear communication. You don't want them to have a false sense of security that they will be caught by the rope if they fall between the lowest bolt and the ground. They are not on belay in that space. 

IMO that's also exactly why someone administering a belay test shouldn't make that correction unless it's during a lead belay test specifically--for TR belaying it'll just confuse the tester if they're new belaying & belayer-side climbing commands. i personally wouldn't mention it unless my tester specifically had asked about the differences between lead and TR belaying, or had expressed interest in leading, as it's out of the realm for toprope belay proficiency. one of those "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" deals if it's introduced too early, nevermind in a gym setting

Belaying  describes what the belayer is doing.

A climber looking at a ground fall can still be on belay.