New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #18

Tim Schafstallwrote:

 The days of just going out and climbing all day without thinking about fuel, hydration, and recovery are loooong gone.

So true.  I still remember the first time I "hit the wal" after I turned 40.  I did it again, again, and again until I gave up believing I am still young.

Oldtradguywrote:

Tim

Jean and I are also a fan of Naproxen. 12 hours is better than 4-6 hours.

On our rode trip out west this fall, I believe that we only used Naproxen 1-2 times the entire 2 month trip. Our bodies do not hurt as much when we climb out west. We do not know if it is the low humidity or not that we feel better.

John

+1.

If you have finger joint issues like me, I can totally understand why you needed fewer Naproxen climbing outside of NE.
I find sandstone and limestone so much more finger friendly than the granite, schist, etc we have in NE.  I still remember one trip I took to The New many years ago.  Driving home after a week of hard climbing, it suddenly dawned on me that I did not experienced finger pain when I opened doors, shifted gears, and did things with my fingers. And I had not OD'ed on any anyti inflammatory while in WV.

Lori . that tree is in the cabin that i live in.

I went bouldering today. It was really nice out, 38, good light no sun.

I like the tree, Nick.

Todd Berlier wrote:

couple things:

1) this makes a ton of sense if you have an underlying condition (which is kinda a given in the older crowd) causing inflammation that one is aggravating by climbing. but not if u don't, imo, because

2) NSAIDs in general have been shown to slow hypertrophy of soft tissue as a small amount of inflammation is needed to do that. (***this study is old and not that good and i cant remember if subsequent work confirmed this or not***)

3) also the small chance of kidney and liver damage from chronic use.

eta: and definitely hard disagree on the alcohol, but it is an effective feel good--it just isnt helping anything physiologically.

Todd... I was trying to recall where I read the same thing, that NSAIDS do more harm than good.  One source was Roar..."Spurred by some powerful advertising from the pharmaceutical industry, far too many athletes take ibuprofen before they exercise to head off the possibility of pain.  This is a bad idea...from a gut health standpoint it's an awful practice.  Research shows it also interferes with recovery. You don't need it. Don't take it."   

Having said that, clearly it works for climbers here, and it is probably not a chronic habit.  

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I finally found the energy to dig into the book introduced here called Defy Aging by Beth Bennett, PhD  This book does the deep dive into the physiology of aging, what exactly happens that causes all the signs of getting old, including the biology of cell destruction.  It's a lot of information to process, maybe too much.  But she pauses now and then with a chapter on "What To Do About It"... updating with all the current science on fixes for the various problems. Besides periodic fasting (calorie deprivation), the main take away so far is 'use it or lose it'. 

Bennett takes a whole chapter to discuss muscles, and to say that "the best predictor of death in older men is muscle weakness."  There's a great chapter on androgen-replacement both for men and women.  One thing I didn't remember was that muscles are also endocrine producers.  As you lose muscle, you lose hormones like IGF-1, HGH, testosterone etc.  

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Rich's posted article "Why I Still Love Racing at Age 82" has stayed on my mind--and as always, if Rich posts it, it's worth a read.  I struggle with all the things the author talked about... most especially feeling ridiculous, embarrassed and frequently defeated out there climbing.  It's just more of my personal baggage that I try to jettison, but seems to come right back.  It can be an ego blow to just be a mediocre, a lousy climber... but add in age and it is sometimes overwhelming. I'm not comfortable with 'duffer'... and (sorry Helen!) don't really want to be called "Old Lady".  The loss of sexuality, of respect, of a sense of competence is painful.   

I realize these are my own internal battles.  No one else out there at the crags cares (except when someone says "You inspire me..." or "She's pretty good... FOR SOMEONE HER AGE.")  I don't want to be excused from the rules of climbing because I'm old.  Don't want to be patronized.  Don't want the bar set lower.  But I also don't enjoy the battle to 'look younger'... what does this face, this body, this being 'look like' in its real, natural aging form?  Can it still be strong and beautiful?  

All part of the emotional game of being 'over 50', I guess. 

"The big picture is that we older runners (climbers?) are leading a major change in society's perception of aging... The marginalization and stereotyping of older people is arguably the last great prejudice of our society."  

I think it was "Masters of Stone", but at the North Face in Palo Alto we used to play a video on loop. The section with Peter Croft included a comment from him about 'when he gets older'. He said that "if 5.10 is all I can do, then I'll push really hard to do 5,10. Or push to do a lot of 5.8s in a day." 

Lori Milaswrote:

Todd... I was trying to recall where I read the same thing, that NSAIDS do more harm than good.  One source was Roar..."Spurred by some powerful advertising from the pharmaceutical industry, far too many athletes take ibuprofen before they exercise to head off the possibility of pain.  This is a bad idea...from a gut health standpoint it's an awful practice.  Research shows it also interferes with recovery. You don't need it. Don't take it."   

Having said that, clearly it works for climbers here, and it is probably not a chronic habit.  

IMHO, whoever Roar is, he is advocating opinion, not fact.  If your NSAID uptake is limited to one pre-exercise dose you're fine. 

Bennett takes a whole chapter to discuss muscles, and to say that "the best predictor of death in older men is muscle weakness."  There's a great chapter on androgen-replacement both for men and women.  One thing I didn't remember was that muscles are also endocrine producers.  As you lose muscle, you lose hormones like IGF-1, HGH, testosterone etc. 

Rather than using androgen replacement, go to the gym two times a week.  Start a comprehensive weight lifting program.  Upper body, core, lower body.  You can gain strength and muscle.  After lifting weights, do cardio and get your heart rate near the recommended maximum.  Also, start a frequent stretching/yoga routine.  

Idaho Bobwrote:

IMHO, whoever Roar is, he is advocating opinion, not fact.  If your NSAID uptake is limited to one pre-exercise dose you're fine. 

Rather than using androgen replacement, go to the gym two times a week.  Start a comprehensive weight lifting program.  Upper body, core, lower body.  You can gain strength and muscle.  After lifting weights, do cardio and get your heart rate near the recommended maximum.  Also, start a frequent stretching/yoga routine.  

Hey Bob... I respect you, and your opinions.  I'll leave Roar alone for now, until I find the original quote I was looking for.  And androgen and hormone replacement is individual choice. 

But for me... I'm in the NRA group for hormone replacement... you'd have to pry it out of my cold dead hands.     And I won't take an aspirin for pain.  

This all natural, organic girl went ten years with no hormones after early menopause. Loss of bone, loss of skin and hair texture, heart and blood pressure issues and serious depression... I soldiered on trying to fix it all with herbs and diet until I realized that my body was not screaming for black cohosh, it was asking for estrogen.  Even after I decided to pursue that I was faced with my doctor's mantra... "the least amount of hormone replacement for the least amount of time" which was barely a blip on my radar... until I said, fuck that.  Give me what I need.    

I lost one doctor who was fine with whatever estrogen I wanted, but said I'd grow a beard for sure and have a heart attack with testosterone.  He simply fired me on the spot when I asked for it.  

1 mg of testosterone daily (or every few days) changed my life... muscle mass, attitude, bone density.  One tiny milligram.  I credit that 1 milligram for climbing.  

I hope I'm not ratting out Tony here... but early in our relationship I was trying to figure him out. How is this big strong dude not so big and strong anymore? And then came the day when he said he was home in front of the TV weeping over an old movie... WEEPING!  And then I flashed... hey, have you had your testosterone levels checked lately?  He made that visit to his doctor, and then to the lab... where it was found that the T level was in the tank.  In fact, was flagged ABNORMAL, and far below the lowest range.  Even then, the doctor wasn't sure it was important.  (I call this ageism. Why is it assumed that a senior male does not need testosterone, or to feel strong and sexual?) 

Tony had to go through a number of tests and a number of doctors, including a Urologist (for over 4 months) to finally get prescription T. Where 1 mg does it for me, it's closer to 100 for him.  He can workout now, recover from surgery, build bone, and feels a little of that fire that he thought was gone forever.  

Better living through chemistry... new motto.    

EDIT: Oh, god. The rant. I have refused to engage in this conversation any longer with my Kaiser docs. While they have 'studies' on HRT... I also have studies.  But while they don't want to prescribe estrogen or, god forbid! testosterone, to a woman... they have no problem prescribing the plethora of anti-depressants, antihypertensives, statins, and various other medications to try to reverse all they symptoms that arise from loss of hormones.  Almost makes one think there is a reason... 

Steve McGeewrote:

The section with Peter Croft included a comment from him about 'when he gets older'. He said that "if 5.10 is all I can do, then I'll push really hard to do 5,10. Or push to do a lot of 5.8s in a day." 

Peter is in his mid-60s and climbing 13+. So, for him, so far so good.

I can not take Ibuprofen because of kidney problems. Are my Kidneys damaged from motorcycle racing or the painkillers from the injuries? I never took large amounts at any one time. 

Good men cry. 

I did menopause way back at age 50. And turned 50 when my son turned 13 (lotsa candles on that cake!), so they joke I was making back then?

Which of is would be able to grow a mustache first.

Sigh.

.........

An actual climbing question, here! For our boulderers? I think all two of you are in CA? Where are you prowling, to boulder? I'm a VRB* boulderer, but it's fun. I might toss that in the mix, if I go through CA when I head to see the crowd way down in JT in April. The boulder pad is the sleeping arrangement in the CRV, after all.

Best, Helen

*Very Remarkably Bad

If you come through Bishop I would be happy to show you around. There is also some almost ok climbing around here.

"VRB " your in good company!

Mark Frumkinwrote:

If you come through Bishop I would be happy to show you around. There is also some almost ok climbing around here.

I took a trip to Bishop in the late '90's.  Climbed at Owens and bouldered at The Buttermilks.
Owens is good if you do not mind climbing in a "pit". How's Pine Creek these days> Did not check it out that trip.

Bouldering at The Butternilks was awesome.  It was May, the snowcapped Sierras were in the background.  So, so pretty.  Temps and humidity were perfect, the problems were really good.  I was by myself and w/o a pad so I stuck to problems I can jump off safely and traverses.  

Lori Milaswrote:

 One thing I didn't remember was that muscles are also endocrine producers.  As you lose muscle, you lose hormones like IGF-1, HGH, testosterone etc.  

But just to be clear, muscle does not produce any of these hormones.  Exercise of muscle (and it's the exercise component that is the key) can stimulate the production of various hormones by other organs and tissues.  Testosterone is produced in the Leydig cells of the testes, the ovaries in woman and a small amount in the adrenals.  There is a complicated relationship among muscle mass, muscle strength and hormone levels and hormone receptor levels.  But in general, I would reverse your sentence and say that as you have decreased production of hormones, you tend to lose muscle strength but especially mass.  And as you exercise less and use your muscles less, there is a cascade of negative effects.

PTRwrote:

Hey, Mike: sorry that we never connected at the Gunks last summer.  Hope your move to Vegas goes well.  Feel free to try me again next time you go to the Gunks.

Maybe next summer :)

Lori Milaswrote:

Yay on powerful decision!  We’ll practically be neighbors.  Let me know when you get settled in.. sounds like you have a pack of friends here who will get out with you, too!  

Great thanks.

I will reach out out MP soon :)

phylp phylpwrote:

But just to be clear, muscle does not produce any of these hormones.  Exercise of muscle (and it's the exercise component that is the key) can stimulate the production of various hormones by other organs and tissues.  Testosterone is produced in the Leydig cells of the testes, the ovaries in woman and a small amount in the adrenals.  There is a complicated relationship among muscle mass, muscle strength and hormone levels and hormone receptor levels.  But in general, I would reverse your sentence and say that as you have decreased production of hormones, you tend to lose muscle strength but especially mass.  And as you exercise less and use your muscles less, there is a cascade of negative effects.

Thank you Phylp. I thought you might weigh in on this! This is your specialty!

Since I have been interested in increasing my own HGH I was told that the best way to do so, short of injections or possibly using LArginine, was to lift weights.  Cardio workouts did not increase my IGF-1 at all, but consistent weight lifting did.  I’m sure you know the physiology behind that, but it did get frustrating that it took so much hard work with weights to raise those levels. (For me the goal was to get my own growth hormone into the normal range as it was very diminished due to diabetes).  

I had a very silly day climbing yesterday. Led a 20 I did the other week but didn't feel strong. I also wasn't concentrating, took off with no QuickDraws and had to come back down from the second bolt (we'd pre clipped up to the second). Then I tried a 21 on TR I'd led ages ago. Got up it with one sit. Then tried a grade 23 on TR. Made a real mess of it. The area (known as The Cave) is quite overhung, so it's hard to get back on when you fall off, as you'll see in the video. All sorts of weird shenanigans!

https://youtu.be/tilmh-i5vSU

@Helen- bouldering en route to JTree kind of depends on what route you take.

I'm guessing you know about the bouldering near Twin Falls- the Channel and Dierkes Lake.

If you travel through Las Vegas, you could definitely find some fun at the Kraft boulders at Red Rocks. 

Many of the problems are in the sun, however, so not so nice if it's hot.

If you go via St George (a little out of the way), Moe's Valley is excellent and you can find problems at your level that work with a single pad.

If Reno boulders are melted out, you should accept Todd's offer.

Bishop has great bouldering, Buttermilks, or maybe better for you, the Happys.

Obviously JTree has plenty of bouldering. Rock is a little rough. I haven't done much there, but there's a big guidebook!

If you want to get on some moderate/easy sport leads, consider visiting New Jack City when you are down there. 

Just try to avoid the weekend. Or not, if you like enthusiastic crowds.

phylp phylpwrote:

But just to be clear, muscle does not produce any of these hormones.  Exercise of muscle (and it's the exercise component that is the key) can stimulate the production of various hormones by other organs and tissues.  Testosterone is produced in the Leydig cells of the testes, the ovaries in woman and a small amount in the adrenals.  There is a complicated relationship among muscle mass, muscle strength and hormone levels and hormone receptor levels.  But in general, I would reverse your sentence and say that as you have decreased production of hormones, you tend to lose muscle strength but especially mass.  And as you exercise less and use your muscles less, there is a cascade of negative effects.

There's facts, and then there's alternative facts. Thanks phylp for keeping it sorted.