How to get new climbers to understand the risks

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

The new climbers I climb with aren’t oblivious to the risks, on the contrary, they are overly aware [redacted]

Yes, I do agree with that but I argue new climbers:
1) Can overly trust their mentor who may not be the best mentor or teacher
2) Don't fully realize how systems can fail (We are all still learning)
3) Can be overly cautious but don't know how to spot out real and subtle hazards
4) If an incident does occur do the new climbers have the technical knowledge to deal with it (e.g., self-rescue) 

Well here's something concrete that could be done (for Autobelays anyway)...

I notice the IFSC speed climbers clip into two opposite and opposed autolocking carabiners. Gyms should adopt the same because:

2 is better than one AND more importantly clipping the second sort of forces you to check the first.

Mark E Dixonwrote:

In an accident thread, Peter Beal makes this excellent point-

It also illuminates a fundamental truth that the industry has yet to figure out what to do with, namely that climbing is potentially suddenly and irreversibly fatal in a way that most other consumer-oriented sports are not. How to impress upon newer climbers (and re-remind veterans) just how dangerous it is? 

OTOH, I'm not sure climbing is unique in terms of its risks.

IIRC, about 10 skiers die annually in Colorado alone. 

Maybe the same number of white water rafters. 

Even Crossfit probably sees a few deaths each year.

Climbing, especially gym climbing, is marketed as safe and mostly is.

Public opinion has gone moved from "daredevil foolishness" to "wholesome after school activity."

Not sure how that is going to change at this point. 

Nevertheless, I do wonder why the non-climbing media has never latched onto one of these tragic stories. 

Easy. Show them the gnar accident photos. Imagine if Americans had to see the dead bodies of soldiers coming home from war.

Ryan Never climbs wrote:

Did you not see the anal implant thread?! Fuck climbing gyms 

Edit: to paraphrase the back of a ski/snowboard lift ticket: you might die; fuck you

Fuk ski resorts while at it eh? At least the gyms dont offer rides to the top.

I’ve listened to many podcasts in which the host asks a climber how they got started and the response is some variation of “we got this rope out of the garage and tied it around my waist. My partner held the other end and we would untie and thread it through each bolt.”

I think there is a good chance that today’s newer climber is, on average, more safety conscious and knowledgeable than new climbers were 40 years ago. There is just more info out there and it’s more accessible. However, there are orders of magnitude more people entering climbing as a hobby so there will naturally be more accidents. For every person that ends up a statistic there are a thousand that had a great day at the crag. It also means that mentorship isn’t practical for most of us as there are too many Gumbys and not enough trad dads so we won’t all have the benefit of the guidance from the previous generation that used to be more common (I’ve heard). 

Drop a watermelon from 30 feet onto a rock and have a look at it.

Book smart is way different from experience, always has been, always will be. I notice the new "book smart" climbers quite a bit. Usually they have spent quite a bit on gyms, gear, guides etc yet still dont know what a solid placement is or how to read a basic climb. 

The booty and used gear for cheap is real.

Arno Ilgner proposes that new climbers get on the sharp end sooner rather than later in “Espresso Lessons” and I tend to agree. 

more safety conscious and knowledgeable.

True. But with that knowledge and that level of safety consciousness comes, I think, an attitude of I can make climbing safe.

Tradibanwrote:

Easy. Show them the gnar accident photos. Imagine if Americans had to see the dead bodies of soldiers coming home from war.

While I agree with your opinion many of us saw those bodies on the nightly news during Vietnam. Walter Cronkite doing body counts. Never forget that.

Isn’t this just a combination of top ropes are not always safe and experience is overrated?

People all learn differently, one technique won’t work for everyone and some people may be incapable. Making sure the information people need to stay safe is available  in as many different formats as possible may be ideal and impractical. We may have to accept that some will fall and we did all we could. It’s certainly not as dangerous as smoking or using 

Read Lynn Hill's book "Climbing Free My Life in the Vertical World"

She dives deep into the topic of risk/danger in climbing with epic stories of sketchy leads, surviving a 70ft groundfall, losing friends in the Alpine and climbing with the other Yosemite legends. Great book, great stories, and you'll feel more experienced after reading.

Gumby Kingwrote:

Yes, I do agree with that but I argue new climbers:
1) Can overly trust their mentor who may not be the best mentor or teacher

Hit the nail on the head for sure. The ammount of 3 months into climbing gumbies that I see teaching other people incorrect and unsafe things is truly astounding. The duning-kruger curve is a real bitch sometimes.

Connor Dobsonwrote:

Hit the nail on the head for sure. The ammount of 3 months into climbing gumbies that I see teaching other people incorrect and unsafe things is truly astounding. The duning-kruger curve is a real bitch sometimes.

The most important thing to teach new people is to question everything and trust nothing at face value. Always make your own conclusions based on the information you’re provided with. Just because somebody says they’re an expert and you should do what they do does not mean you can’t question their conclusions.

Strangely enough, that’s also a good idea for life in general. 

Tell the new climber an endless litany of accident stories, the more fatalities the better. Still more better is if these accident stories are full on banal in setting and circumstance. Finish every story with,

"anyway that's ok, we'll see him again in hell!"

“We have seen a disturbing amount of overconfidence paired with inexperience..”.

 Denali Mountaineering Rangers May 27,2021 blog post

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

Finish every story with,

"anyway that's ok, we'll see him again in hell!"

I prefer "don't worry if you fuck it up, you'll have the rest of your life to think about what you did wrong."

Gunkiemikewrote:

"Nevertheless, I do wonder why the non-climbing media has never latched onto one of these tragic stories. "

Money. There's money to be made in pitching climbing as a safe after-school activity. There's no money to be made in scaring folks away.

I think it’s the opposite.  Not enough money in the sport for as much air time as other sports.  Every second on TV costs somebody thousands of dollars.  Even a few seconds on the evening news is paid for by somebody.  Stories that target a very small demographic don’t get much air time, until the demographic grows.

Thanks Mark! This screen grab got a bit of a discussion going over on my FB. I think it's relevant to this discussion as well.