Issue with Online Proselytizing (Trigger Warning)

Ordinary Christians are good people.  I’ve been married to one for 38+ years. Ordinary non-Christians are no different that way.  

Asking for POC, gay people, etc, is the same [frank, others]

I sympathize with this argument because I think it's hard to explain if you feel a certain way. I guess I just feel like it isn't the same for the reasons mentioned already: I can't be converted to being a bi person of color, for instance. it's also the majority of the country (or at least the largest minority depending on how you look at it) vs marginalized groups (certainly not well represented in climbing anyway).

But I'm not in that big group looking out at the rest. I see every president has been a Christian, etc, and don't really understand that feeling that gets represented in these types of arguments of being in the most powerful group and at the same time somehow feeling persecuted (like, "why not a white pride month?").

They're not proselytizing or selling they're just looking for mindedness [frank, christian, Grug M, cherokee nunes, Jim T]

This seems to lack the usual reading between the lines I'm accustomed to seeing on mtn proj.

OnX takes over: Pitchforks come out over the route database.
Yosemite issues permits (free) for big walls: Slippery slope in effect!

This has been the case for virtually every controversial issue we've seen here with typically no supporters to favor the powerful group...

But here are c4c describing their goals on their site in plain English. I quoted them above, it is not a climbing group, it is a group seeking to spread the gospel through climbers. Mandy is probably a great person and partner (I'd climb with her!) but attaching partner finder to a group like that seems pretty nefarious. Again, it's not a climbing group. It's a missionary group, but doubly so because of pretending it is something mundane. Maybe triple if everyone here thinks she's just a cool girl (honey pot!). Then we have like an agent provacateur on our hands. Is she Russian too? (joke)

That's how I feel anyway. Maybe you guys like it when people hand you fliers on the subway, or tell you that you're going to hell for not believing a certain thing, but I don't think it's that cool. You know, messianic wars in the future, regular wars now, politics, etc.  

Even if they were proselytizing who cares [christian]

To me, this is really a don't shit where you eat kind of thing. I'd rather think about God in the mountains and definitely don't need to bring the church with me. You know? Plus all of the other reasons I explained because we all exist right here on the internet as well.

There's a double standard on christians [jamila]

Not for me! Thanks for the very recent reminder of Buddhist aggression on the Rohinga to go along with the atrocities committed by everyone else, literally. But, I really don't care what you believe in, only the act of pushing it on other people. It is plainly divisive on so many levels.

But climbing companies and non-profits do it! [sinRopa]

dude, really you seem like a cool and thoughtful guy, but comparing an AT volunteer day to missionary work has got to be one of the most bad faith arguments i'll see for awhile. Everyone is invited to walk on the AT for free... but you gotta pay up to get in the pearlies (tithe, praying, whatever, it is "we know and those guys don't know"! I just don't see how your metaphor or examples can work. If Scarpa wants to let me try climbing shoes at a demo day at the crag... it seems pretty on-topic to climbing.

No you're the triggered one  [some guy]

I put my 'rant' up with that warning in case the stuff i linked to bothered anyone. I thought that made it a little more polite. I already toned it down because I thought the testimony of the priest and nun throwing the newborn of the 14 year old he raped into the fire was a little a tough to read.

Not every Christian is responsible for those atrocities or any other. Not every Jewish person was out on the streets of Haifa beating the crap out of Muslims during the last conflict. Not every Ontarian murdered that family the other day with their car. But is it a tacit approval when you're trying to solicit new members when all of this stuff is still coming out? Open question. 

It's not completely dissimilar to whether a company/university who profited off and was built by the slave trade (Met Life insurance, Brown University, amongst many) owes some sort of reparations, or any other issue that people would like to see addressed in society. People don't like when this gets brought up but, fuck you, brown university and met life insurance! We all have to deal with the consequences of past actions.

I thought a big part of Christian religions was dealing with the sin of man for Adam being cast out of paradise and that is why you have to deal with posts like this, anyway which is a perfectly logical religious explanation.

Anyway, the conversation here has gone pretty OT now but there was some good back and forth on the merits of this stuff and some funny jokes. Not as good as the pregnant lady meme in general, but the soccer injury comment was up there. And it would be naive of me to think we could solve the freedom of religion / freedom from religion issue right here and now but hopefully at least we can all come together and squash this other guys dream of a horribly regressive and counterproductive "FAIR tax". 

Thanks for reading my blog, I now owe you all three belays on your proj. Just keep the solicitors out. No more religious indoctrination through the forums, enough school surveys, and for the love of Dog all micro cams are the same (except c3's).

Peace and sorry if I bothered anyone.

How polite of you, Mr. Logic. Pleasant, but unexpected. 

I beg to differ on one point... Please will anyone raise their hand if they've been religiously indoctrinated, or even converted, by Christians on this forum.

To me, this is really a don't shit where you eat kind of thing. I'd rather think about God in the mountains and definitely don't need to bring the church with me.

When the proselytizers would knock on my grandfathers door and ask him what church he went to he’d say “the church in the woods” and indicate the forest on the back of his farm. 

Daniel Montgomerywrote:

How polite of you, Mr. Logic. Pleasant, but unexpected. 

I beg to differ on one point... Please will anyone raise their hand if they've been religiously indoctrinated, or even converted, by Christians on this forum.

Not yet! Still working on my Thoughts & Prayers!

Francis Thompson wrote: "Maybe the atheist cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman.”

Richard Dawkins wrote:

The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.

Daniel Montgomerywrote:

How polite of you, Mr. Logic. Pleasant, but unexpected. 

I beg to differ on one point... Please will anyone raise their hand if they've been religiously indoctrinated, or even converted, by Christians on this forum.

I often find myself intoning the name of my personal lord and savior, Jesus F-ing Christ, while reading this forum. Does that count?

I'll be praying for you petzl logic.  Nice thread.

Daniel Montgomerywrote:

I could handle having an MP philosophy thread. Could be fun.

A wise man once asked (on the Taco): "What is Mind?"

Pierre de St Croixwrote:

WE ARE TOAST!

 

Yeah but can you really prove the science? Maybe we all need to start building neighborhood arks?

Carolinawrote:

I'll be praying for you petzl logic.  Nice thread.

lol - what if that's exactly what they don't want? Nah, its okay - "Nothing fails like prayer" 

*see "Thoughts and Prayers" and how well they've quelled mass shootings

M Mwrote:

Yeah but can you really prove the science? Maybe we all need to start building neighborhood arks?

Wow! Drink that Kool Aid some more!

Typical science-illiterate response.

Build that boat for your great-grandkids for when the global sea level rises due to climate change.

Pierre de St Croixwrote:

Wow! Drink that Kool Aid some more!

Typical science-illiterate response.

Build that boat for your great-grandkids for when the global sea level rises due to climate change.

You basically just admitted you cant prove it and admitted that building an ark is a good idea!

I'm thinking a solid 60'+ sailboat is what I'll have ready to go in the yard.

Honestly I think nothing will be done until people are starving and poor, almost half of our country thinks science is corrupt and not worth learning. Plus we just need our stuff, new everything made in god knows where. Even in liberal hotbeds like CT you are surrounded by consumerism and military contracting, humans have no problem turning a blind eye until it hits them in the pocketbook or their stomach.

Maybe Jesus can save us?

M Mwrote:

You basically just admitted you cant prove it and admitted that building an ark is a good idea!

"Can you turn on a carabiner? Since you can't, you must not be a very good climber!"

That's what these statements sound like. What do you mean when you say "turn on?" Open a carabiner? Close it? Titillate it? It just sounds like you don't know how a carabiner works. Same with 'prove' and 'science.' 

But that's what we get for not offering actual education to our voting populace. Instead just endless and pointless 'discussions' about who we should obey. 

When people say "drink the Koolaid" I always think of the obese half of the country pounding high fructose corn syrup like its water. We know it causes diabetes but maybe it also causes severe stupidity? Jesus can save us maybe?

M Mwrote:

When people say "drink the Koolaid" I always think of the obese half of the country pounding high fructose corn syrup like its water. We know it causes diabetes but maybe it also causes severe stupidity? Jesus can save us maybe?

Do you know that the "Drink the Koolaid" saying is a reference to Jonestown?

It was mentioned above that people won't take the environment seriously until mass starvation hits. Fortunately for us we have examples of governments from the 20th century that were very adept at starving out the population. Perhaps not so ironically, it is the same philosophy embraced by climate activists today. 

I wonder why?

SinRopa wrote:

Zero (or negative) population growth.  I’m doing my part, got the ol snippity snip snip years ago.  

The single most environmentally conscious decision one can make is not having kids. 

Do you ever worry that the people telling you that want you to believe its true for you, but don’t actually want to apply to everybody, and certainly not to themselves?

SinRopa wrote:

Zero (or negative) population growth.  I’m doing my part, got the ol snippity snip snip years ago.  

The single most environmentally conscious decision one can make is not having kids. 

Is it, though? I mean, you should definitely be in control of your own reproductive system. But "environmentally conscious?" It sounds like a lot of indoctrinated nonsense to assume that if consumption = (number of people) x (per-capita consumption), the only part that can change is the number of people. 

petzl logicwrote:

A) They're not proselytizing or selling they're just looking for mindedness [frank, christian, Grug M, cherokee nunes, Jim T]

This seems to lack the usual reading between the lines I'm accustomed to seeing on mtn proj.

B) Even if they were proselytizing who cares [christian]

To me, this is really a don't shit where you eat kind of thing. I'd rather think about God in the mountains and definitely don't need to bring the church with me. You know? Plus all of the other reasons I explained because we all exist right here on the internet as well.

 C) Just keep the solicitors out. 

Peace and sorry if I bothered anyone.

Bill, (three pages ago) I have zero issue w/ an ideology filter but, again, that wasn't the OP's desire, his desire seemed a bit more totalitarian than a simple filter.

Petzl. Go back and read the CFC gal's post. I did. Nowhere in her post did it allude to bringing in non-believers and proselytizing to them. As many have pointed out (and still seems to be flying over the forehead), she merely put out a PSA for those of like mind, who might want to climb with others of like mind. Still failing to see the problem with this. A and C covered.

I never claimed B, I (tried to) make the point that she's explicitly NOT evangelizing. How this could still be unclear is... bewildering. You didn't bother me, I'm just confused because very little in the thread starter made logical sense, based on the most recent CFC post in question.