Issue with Online Proselytizing (Trigger Warning)

Every few months we see a post or two that is more about proselytizing than climbing. 

Taken from Climbers for Christ's website: "The Mission of Climbers for Christ is to encourage, equip and empower climbers to share the love of Christ with the climbing community."

I don't see how that is different than advertising or selling on the forums, and while we have a For Sale forum, there is not really a place in 'General Climbing' or 'Regional Partners' to solicit recruits for a cult or religion, if they are different. I mean, we could have a long and rational discussion about whether religion is a cult, but it would certainly not have anything to do with climbing and neither does that mission, which is why I don't think it belongs on this site. 

While there is a lot of harmless material that doesn't have to do with climbing that sneaks into the forums, is religion one of them?

This week the biggest story in Canada is that of a residential school which was found to have 200+ remains of students on the premises. These residential schools were established by The Catholic Church to destroy the indigenous culture and religion here. Children were forcibly removed from their parents, stripped of their language, dignity, and family in the hopes of westernizing them. Many of the former students testified at the rampant abuse at the hands of priests and nuns. The live testimonies about the schools revealed atrocities that are impossible to fathom. The Trudeau government gave a formal apology a few years ago but with details coming out and a national underclass suffering from the legacy of that abuse and the problems that go with it, the story is not going away.

This is not unique to The Catholic Church, there are stories of abuse in every organized religion and there is growing evidence that religious figures use organizations to groom and keep quiet young victims.

The problems in our society because of religion extend past the sexual abuse of minors. There is more vaccine hesitancy among evangelicals than in any other of people in the nation. Evangelicals have also championed the rise of mass incarceration, the death penalty, and restricted equality legislation. 

And, I don't intend to pick on just those two as religion in general has provided some great things. Quakers were instrumental in dismantling slavery. Some of the greatest architecture the world has ever seen like the Pyramids, Notre Dame, Masjid al-Haram, etc, were all created by or for the devout. But none of that has anything to do with climbing either.

There were comments about 'Loud Atheists' in the last thread, but I make no comment about the existence of God or my own religious feelings. Everyone is allowed to think, feel, worship according to how they choose, and no one should feel threatened for believing one way or the other. But there is still an ocean of a difference between believing in something, and trying to sell other people on that belief.

I strongly think that because the reactions to that act of 'selling' can be hostile for various reasons ranging from having been abused at the hands of religious people, to the recent disclosure of the hundreds of indigenous kids that were murdered, Mountain Project would function better with an absence of soliciting by these groups.

Well said. That would be my preference as well. I’ve resisted posting in the most recent C4C thread.  Glad you started this one.

Or maybe it is as simple as having those kinds of threads marked as “For sale / wanted”? Or perhaps a new “Proselytizing” option. I suspect C4C would be ok with that.  And that way even, say, a White Supremacy group would have a way to try to pick up like-minded people with whom to climb and persuade.  

Isn't asking for partners that are POC or LBGT similar to asking for climbers of a religion?

FrankPS wrote:

Isn't asking for partners that are POC or LBGT similar to asking for climbers of a religion?

Yeah bro they're trying to convert them to POC and LGBT after they made those choices themselves

While we’re at it, can we please tax the churches? Thaaaaaaanks.

W K wrote:

Yeah bro they're trying to convert them to POC and LGBT after they made those choices themselves

Agree - not the same.

You can't take a stand without an ideology.

Or, you can do what I do: scroll by posts you don’t care about. Pretty easy to do. 

As someone who thoroughly rejects both sides of this chasm, let's do it. As long as it is evenly applied.

And as for taxing churches, the money they draw in has already been taxed as income by the poor bastards handing it over. 

We all want to see Joel Osteen at the bottom of the ocean. But using the violence of State to get there is an even more egregious evil.

I don't care if it's about Christ or Antichrist; I'm triggered by the idea that climbing is "for" anything.

W K wrote:

Yeah bro they're trying to convert them to POC and LGBT after they made those choices themselves

Exactly. There's a difference between groups that exist without trying to have a nonconsensual effect on the lives of others, and groups that that do. 

petzl logic wrote:

Every few months we see a post or two that is more about proselytizing than climbing. 

Taken from Climbers for Christ's website: "The Mission of Climbers for Christ is to encourage, equip and empower climbers to share the love of Christ with the climbing community."

I don't see how that is different than advertising or selling on the forums, and while we have a For Sale forum, there is not really a place in 'General Climbing' or 'Regional Partners' to solicit recruits for a cult or religion, if they are different. I mean, we could have a long and rational discussion about whether religion is a cult, but it would certainly not have anything to do with climbing and neither does that mission, which is why I don't think it belongs on this site. 

While there is a lot of harmless material that doesn't have to do with climbing that sneaks into the forums, is religion one of them?

This week the biggest story in Canada is that of a residential school which was found to have 200+ remains of students on the premises. These residential schools were established by The Catholic Church to destroy the indigenous culture and religion here. Children were forcibly removed from their parents, stripped of their language, dignity, and family in the hopes of westernizing them. Many of the former students testified at the rampant abuse at the hands of priests and nuns. The live testimonies about the schools revealed atrocities that are impossible to fathom. The Trudeau government gave a formal apology a few years ago but with details coming out and a national underclass suffering from the legacy of that abuse and the problems that go with it, the story is not going away.

This is not unique to The Catholic Church, there are stories of abuse in every organized religion and there is growing evidence that religious figures use organizations to groom and keep quiet young victims.

The problems in our society because of religion extend past the sexual abuse of minors. There is more vaccine hesitancy among evangelicals than in any other of people in the nation. Evangelicals have also championed the rise of mass incarceration, the death penalty, and restricted equality legislation. 

And, I don't intend to pick on just those two as religion in general has provided some great things. Quakers were instrumental in dismantling slavery. Some of the greatest architecture the world has ever seen like the Pyramids, Notre Dame, Masjid al-Haram, etc, were all created by or for the devout. But none of that has anything to do with climbing either.

There were comments about 'Loud Atheists' in the last thread, but I make no comment about the existence of God or my own religious feelings. Everyone is allowed to think, feel, worship according to how they choose, and no one should feel threatened for believing one way or the other. But there is still an ocean of a difference between believing in something, and trying to sell other people on that belief.

I strongly think that because the reactions to that act of 'selling' can be hostile for various reasons ranging from having been abused at the hands of religious people, to the recent disclosure of the hundreds of indigenous kids that were murdered, Mountain Project would function better with an absence of soliciting by these groups.

I like what Matt N wrote in the climbers for God thread. I tend to believe its mostly the higher ups abusing their powers more than its the faithful followers though, human nature tends to not do well with too much of anything, especially power.

Matt N wrote:

Yes, we should all be as tolerant as the true believers. All are welcome, as long as you believe what we do.

Lol cry harder

Paul Morrison wrote:

I don't care if it's about Christ or Antichrist; I'm triggered by the idea that climbing is "for" anything.

Lol. Rings a bell.

In days of yore,  climbers often climbed for their country.  I guess the Olympic Games are revisiting that but in a more controlled way.

Others climb just to bolster their public image. 

And, yes, some climb to publicly promote their ideology. Actually, adherents to that ideology probably do whatever it is they do in a public forum to at the same time promote their ideology.

Back to your point and possibly the OP’s, we would be better off touting a host of other reasons to climb:

• being outside
• building strength and endurance
• developing self-responsibility 
• gaining self-control
• collecting experiences by yourself and also with others

Doing it to evangelize your ideology seems as useless as doing it for your (or your group’s) public image ... and worse if it is your main motivational.

tl;dr   It’s not just promoting an ideology with a host of skeletons in the closet. Practically speaking, it is climbing for the wrong reasons. 

I just skimmed but is the TLDR: "I disagree with certain people so they should be silenced?"

JaredG wrote:

I just skimmed but is the TLDR: "I disagree with certain people so they should be silenced?"

No

How long would a Climbers for Satan thread last on MP?

Parachute Adams wrote:

How long would a Climbers for Satan thread last on MP?

Start one and find out. 

Parachute Adams wrote:

How long would a Climbers for Satan thread last on MP?

An eternity of conscious torment.

Doug S wrote:

An eternity of conscious torment.

Funny. Proof that Christians are experts at using fear as a tool.

Parachute Adams wrote:

How long would a Climbers for Satan thread last on MP?

I was close to starting one yesterday but then I realized I didn't want everyone to know my relationship with Satan.