Introducing Climb United

Todd Berlier wrote:

who is open to changing their mind on this topic?

Yes, this is the real question. 

For my part, if 'this topic' is which political party I prefer, then the answer is 'no, I'm unlikely to change my mind because of a MP discussion.' If 'this topic' is 'what should be done about racism in America,' again my answer would be 'no.' So going over these things is not really a discussion, it's just pointless performance.

But, if 'this topic' is literally just what the AAC put together as guidelines for displayers of route names, I am open to changing my mind on that. So a reasonable discussion could be had. And, if we were to get rid of all the extraneous stuff not on THAT topic, it seems like this could be a one page thread. And a far better one for it.

Marc801 Cwrote:

Let's try this one more time for the kids sleeping in the back row:

*You* don't get to decide what is racist if you are not in the marginalized group.

You. Have. No. Say. In. The. Matter.

That's not how it works at all. As an alaskan native, I could call this post of yours, racist and demand you to delete it. At least by your logic

but because some use it as derogatory slang for a few years it must be ditched completely.

No, just in some circumstances.

Most MP users likely didn't vote for Donald Trump, but they're as stupid as the people who did. They mistakenly identify thoughts for thinking.

This is all so shallow.  The vast majority of the AAC officers are white.  If they are serious about this.  They should all find a person of color to replace them now!  Lead by example or stfu.  

M Spraguewrote:

Can we say "Aunt Tom" ?  Also, Isn't "dyke" a British variant spelling of "dike"? Context matters. "retarded" "retard" and "cripple" can also all  be a completely innocuous. Words are continually being coopted by some as insults. Do we have to keep bowing to those who do and nulling our lexicon, or should we focus on the intent? "Niger" is the name of a river and a country (so "Floating down the Hudson" is fine but "Floating down the Niger" is bad??. "Spick and span" as in spotlessly clean? So many of these lists are based on very limited knowledge of language. You might have a word that has been used for 1000 years innocuously, but because some use it as derogatory slang for a few years it must be ditched completely.

Man, don't die on this hill. Niger? Really?

MP User wrote:

twink isn't derogatory, if twink is derogatory than so is bear, otter, unicorn, fish and all the other fun SLANG to describe your preferences. queer is offensive? cancel queer eye and queer as folk. if i'm referring to the way GME stock people refer to themselves on a stock themed rock i cant say autistic? that's a bummer

i'm putting up a "countries in africa boulder" and damn well know i'm calling one of them niger. /s

RIP all of the Ruski doms

negra literally means black, wtf.

This is your battle in life huh? 

In an attempt to be more inclusive..... PayPal me $100 and I’ll name a route, which will appear in a future guidebook, anything you want.

This is late cause I had to go to work but I admit I was wrong about uncle tom. 

However I'd say the majority of people would see that as a reference to the book, being much more famous, and that was pro-abolition, right? Been a while since I read it. 

Also... who made that list again? Cause a lot of those words are not slurs. Queer is literally in the acronym for acronym people. Cripple, retard, autistic, are all terms and have real meanings (scientific ones, sort of), and imbecile and schizo are just generic insults. Don't want to go through all the race ones and research but I know Russki was just slang for Russian (and Chinaman as well) that no one uses anymore. Dyke I'm less clear on because I thought that was parallel to fag, which is def an insult. But both of those have different meanings as well, like I've seen dyke all the time on MP, mostly as a misspelling of dike. Like, The Dyke Route. Or like someone mentioned it's the English spelling. Plus fag is slang for cigarette in Britain, which probably isn't applicable here but w/e.

There is zero value in banning words, because context is important for most of them and others like coolie or Sambo haven't been in common usage for a century.  

And for all those who are complaining about us choosing a stupid hill to die on.... you started it.

MP User wrote:

i'm putting up a "countries in africa boulder" and damn well know i'm calling one of them niger. /s

No, we all know you arent. And if you did, you damn well wouldnt post it on MP, and DAMN well wouldnt take any of your friends of color to climb there. There is no fucking reason to do this other than to be edgy and try to make a 'tigger the libs' branded first amendment themed internet battle. 

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

This is late cause I had to go to work but I admit I was wrong about uncle tom. 

However I'd say the majority of people would see that as a reference to the book, being much more famous, and that was pro-abolition, right? Been a while since I read it. 

"I admit i was wrong but also defend my initial position"

Pick one. They are mutually exclusive. 

The book may have had abolitionism as a central theme, but the character of Uncle Tom is the heart of the question here, not the book itself. Most compelling stories have villains, antiheroes, and characters you simply do not sympathize with.

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

Also... who made that list again? Cause a lot of those words are not slurs. Queer is literally in the acronym for acronym people. Cripple, retard, autistic, are all terms and have real meanings (scientific ones, sort of), and imbecile and schizo are just generic insults. Don't want to go through all the race ones and research but I know Russki was just slang for Russian (and Chinaman as well) that no one uses anymore. Dyke I'm less clear on because I thought that was parallel to fag, which is def an insult. But both of those have different meanings as well, like I've seen dyke all the time on MP, mostly as a misspelling of dike. Like, The Dyke Route. Or like someone mentioned it's the English spelling. Plus fag is slang for cigarette in Britain, which probably isn't applicable here but w/e.

My man. You are being willfully ignorant. Just because a slur doesnt offend you (because you are not in the effected group) does not mean its not a slur. You do not get to pick what other people find offensive. Your intentions do not matter, the consequences of your words and actions do. Would you really, in good conscience, name your proud hypothetical FA The Dyke Direct and take a lesbian to climb there? Would you take your classmate from Shanghai to climb at The Chinaman Arete? Would you not be the slightest bit embarassed?

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

Cripple, retard, autistic, are all terms and have real meanings (scientific ones, sort of), and imbecile and schizo are just generic insults. 

Naming a route is not part of the standard, medical, scientific usage of any of these words and you know it.

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

To everyone upset by this- if you climb a route that is considered classic, what about it matters to you? Realistically, its the quality of the stone, the movement, and its grade. There is nothing on earth like climbing right at your personal limit, or climbing a classic area cruiser well below your limit, we all know this. The name means nothing when you're pulling hard on the crux or effortlessly flowing through intuitive sequences.

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

This is late cause I had to go to work but I admit I was wrong about uncle tom. 

However I'd say the majority of people would see that as a reference to the book, being much more famous, and that was pro-abolition, right? Been a while since I read it. 

Daniel, this goes to the heart of the matter.  We have all, at one time or another, been ignorant of how our words are perceived by, and hurt, others.  "Uncle Tom" is universally seen as a slur by one group, but many outside that group are unaware of this perception.  Since you aren't an asshole, once you recognize the error, you stop throwing around the word, right?  Ok, so what about all the other words where we *do* have an idea of the hurt it might cause?  Maybe we think we're being clever or edgy by pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable (an ever-changing target, as language has always been), but at the end of the day we're really just being assholes, or at least immature. 

K Dinneen wrote:

This IS about control, censorship political correctness and the constant leftist push to centralize and consolidate power to inflict maximum authority on our lives.

Or, and stay with me here, maybe people actually care about others' feelings?

Creed Archibaldwrote:

For the people upset by this initiative, which of these words would you like to use in your hypothetic route names? I can't imagine any grown-up wanting their name attached to these. 

Hang on, "mick" as in mick jagger? That's a weird one to outright prohibit. And given the LGBT reclaiming of queer I'd have to say many of us don't find that one offensive at all. 

PWZwrote:

Man, don't die on this hill. Niger? Really?

Is the term "shit for brains" better than "retarded" when being emphatic when inferring somebody is not using their brain? You miss the point if stuck on one example... and WTH is wrong with using "Niger" in a name? You tell me. I don't know if it is telling about the type of person who compiles these lists of bad words, but they are usually full  of ridiculous mistakes and overreach (I'll give them some credit as it was listed as a draft). Silence is taken as acceding.

Perhaps these guys https://www.embassyofniger.org/ can explain to the AAC and some here that Niger is not a 'bad' word, even if it looks similar to the N word.

I am against renaming routes. I also think this list is pretty innocuous, however, publishers don’t have any more right than anyone else to re-name routes. If a particular route has a name that is too offensive to publish then don’t publish it. Don’t re-name it, don’t Crag X, Martel #1 it, just omit it. 

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

This is late cause I had to go to work but I admit I was wrong about uncle tom. 

However I'd say the majority of people would see that as a reference to the book, being much more famous, and that was pro-abolition, right? Been a while since I read it. 

Also... who made that list again? Cause a lot of those words are not slurs. Queer is literally in the acronym for acronym people. Cripple, retard, autistic, are all terms and have real meanings (scientific ones, sort of), and imbecile and schizo are just generic insults. Don't want to go through all the race ones and research but I know Russki was just slang for Russian (and Chinaman as well) that no one uses anymore. Dyke I'm less clear on because I thought that was parallel to fag, which is def an insult. But both of those have different meanings as well, like I've seen dyke all the time on MP, mostly as a misspelling of dike. Like, The Dyke Route. Or like someone mentioned it's the English spelling. Plus fag is slang for cigarette in Britain, which probably isn't applicable here but w/e.

There is zero value in banning words, because context is important for most of them and others like coolie or Sambo haven't been in common usage for a century.  

And for all those who are complaining about us choosing a stupid hill to die on.... you started it.

I going to save this one. 

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

How far does that go? I once got into it with someone here because they thought the geologic term “dyke” was offensive, even though it predates the slur. I wouldn’t use that word as a pejorative, but if my intentions don’t matter and only the outcome does, then am I not supposed to use an actual scientific word just because some dummies out there have co-opted it?

Yeah, this is not unusual. "Fag" used to more commonly mean a cigarette in England, obviously, but it's since evolved toward another more common definition that is pretty much universally condemned. Obviously, if an FA called a route "Intruding Dike" (at CoR) then that's a pretty obvious geological reference using a common geological term. Something like "Lend me a fag" could also be seen similarly, though a little sketchier since that use of the f-word is getting less and less common. But if an FA takes those non-offensive definitions a bit further into obvious double entendre and calls a route "humping a dike," or "sucking on a fag" it's pretty obvious what the intention is.

Language's evolution is fascinating. The use of the word "retarded" to describe cognitive disabilities was common into the 80s-90s, and at the same time that it seriously described conditions, it was also seen as more of a socially-acceptable insult (I remember having a middle school band teacher in the early 90s who would always joke "when you see the word ritard on a musical score, just look up front to the conducting retard, haha!"). Today, that would get a teacher in huge trouble. But for some reason, earlier descriptors of mental level like "idiot," "moron," and "imbeccile," easily moved into being common low-level insults and are in literally no danger of being labeled as "problematic," or at least not until the moronic idiots at the AAC find out about it.

K Dinneen wrote:

This IS about control, censorship political correctness and the constant leftist push to centralize and consolidate power to inflict maximum authority on our lives. 

Lol. If your ego is too soft to handle people wanting to be treated equally then I feel sorry for you.
Of course some people take it too far but that’s hardly unique to the left. That’s what happens in any political arena, people get passionate and then they go crazy.

As if this was anything but PC virtue signaling to gain back revenues lost last year, and to distract climbers from asking exactly why they should continue to support advocates like the AAC, which was created and still predominantly controlled by males, as well as the organizations that "speak for all climbers" while actually representing about 2%, all of whom are working hard behind the scenes to install their private agenda in climbing management programs while loudly proclaiming their support for "local climbing input", organizations that don't allow fee paying members much say on topics like creating new positions or chapters, who fills those admin positions, where to place mission focus, or outreach direction.

NO word used by a group to describe its own members (and make a ton of money selling albums or books) should be on that list.

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

This is late cause I had to go to work but I admit I was wrong about uncle tom. 

However I'd say the majority of people would see that as a reference to the book, being much more famous, and that was pro-abolition, right? Been a while since I read it. 

Also... who made that list again? Cause a lot of those words are not slurs. Queer is literally in the acronym for acronym people. Cripple, retard, autistic, are all terms and have real meanings (scientific ones, sort of), and imbecile and schizo are just generic insults. Don't want to go through all the race ones and research but I know Russki was just slang for Russian (and Chinaman as well) that no one uses anymore. Dyke I'm less clear on because I thought that was parallel to fag, which is def an insult. But both of those have different meanings as well, like I've seen dyke all the time on MP, mostly as a misspelling of dike. Like, The Dyke Route. Or like someone mentioned it's the English spelling. Plus fag is slang for cigarette in Britain, which probably isn't applicable here but w/e.

There is zero value in banning words, because context is important for most of them and others like coolie or Sambo haven't been in common usage for a century.  

And for all those who are complaining about us choosing a stupid hill to die on.... you started it.

It was cool to admit your mistake regarding that term.

Below it, when you defend use of the word queer, by pointing out it is in the preferred acronym...for “acronym people”, you marginalize members of that community. They are just “people” man. I understand your argument, but the slurs got to go.

The point is, when you and I go to the crag to play our silly game, as long as we aren’t blasting tunes, or doing things that threaten access, we are likely going to feel accepted in the community. All should feel welcome and accepted. Period.