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Crags 4x4 is actually needed to access?
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Today’s stock 4x can’t measure up to to a 70s era V8 luxury sedan in any terrain. Float the gnar with 6 of your friends in the back seat, Dog, girlfriend and 12 pack on the front bench. Skis and surfboards in the trunk. Nobody truly needs a texas 4x. Learn how to drive instead. |
Morty Gwinwrote: 1980s about 2% of the US population had 4x4, now it more like 80% and still people are getting stuck and in big accidents because of bad road conditions. You are 100% correct on learning but who is going to teach? A subaru ad? |
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I dunno... I had to shovel even a few inches of snow for the late hubby's Fit to back down our driveway. It was fine with snow that was already packed down. But, it also had to go nose in, back out, to navigate the deep gutter driveway transition. The CR-V was happy with any snow other than the two snowmageddons here. That was the only shoveling for it, stuff that the cars doors don't open until you move it. Normal snows, if my kid's Tacoma beat me home? He'd just kindly drive up and down and pack me a parking spot to pull in, lol! My 85 Nissan king cab? I drove it up over curbs, whatever, whenever that was where I wanted to go. I bought it brand new, but it was a working truck. If you have to creep diagonally for every bump or dip in the road, that's a no go, for me. This little old lady also had a CDL, and could parallel park a full sized Bluebird bus. Only did that once, it took two people to back it up. The first and last time was on my CDL test though, so I was pretty proud to nail it without any practice! Vans, unless they have a ton of added weight, were the shittiest pos's to drive in snow, for me, anyway. It was a bit exciting if they were going to stop, sometimes, too. Slow motion slides, lol! I do miss a manual transmission, still. Best, Helen |
Old lady Hwrote: Amen |
Frank Steinwrote: No it was not me. I am in Santa Fe, been here three and a half years, but have not made it to the tower yet, and I don't think I'd try it in mine, haha. Even as I sing it's praises, I know its limits. Mine's blue, yellow Zia plates and yellow happy face ball on the antenna. If you glance into the car you can tell it's pretty lived in, because it has been |
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Thank you to those that provided substantive answers. I didn't know about needing 4x4 at Shuteye and Sonora CA area crags, the Totem Pole in Queen Creek, or the Dry Canyon. Hadn't heard of the Rubicon trail bouldering in Tahoe so thank you for that too. I haven’t been to a lot of the limestone crags in the Vegas-St. George corridor, especially most of the new ones. Anyone have insight on how necessary 4x4 is for some of those places? Also where are the Sierra east side areas that need 4x4? It seems like several people are referencing them but not mentioning. |
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After spending 3 times the value of my Honda Element in repairs over the past three years I advise you to get something with true 4x4, high clearance, and a beefy suspension. AWD with a good breakover angle just doesn't cut it out here (but was perfect whenever I lived in Arkansas). I overheated and warped the head gasket trying to get to a Queen Creek crag, busted the rear suspension driving too fast/often on dirt roads (roads not even that bad, but wore my suspension down over time), and have had to replace/service various parts because of bottoming out on rocks. |
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I think that the point is that you almost never actually need a 4WD unless you will be driving actual Jeep roads. In three decades of climbing, I believe that the worst road to a crag I actually encountered was probably to the Homestead, and even there a guy made it up with a crappy, stock, low-clearance Subaru hatchback. |
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As I guess a lot of people mentioned, "need" is a relative term based on driving skill and willingness to stop and do major trail maintenance. I was answering the question before in the context of 4WD vs. 2WD (lumping AWD SUVs with the 4WD). All the places I mentioned (Shuteye, Sonora) before I've gotten by okay with my Subaru Forester (2004 and recently 2017, both with slightly oversized all terrain tires), but I've often had to stop and move around rocks, fill in holes, put branches over mud, drive slowly, a bit more walking, etc. I would say if you are willing to do that sort of work, an AWD car with high clearance is fine for pretty much all crags. With my Forester I have never not gone somewhere due to road conditions, and I've spent lots of time on forest service and BLM roads. It certainly was less "fun" than with a 4x4 lifted truck or something like that. In terms of eastern sierra crags that "require" either AWD or 4x4, given the conditions I remember them being in at the times I've gone (or reports I've heard/read), would include much of the Sherwin Plateau bouldering (i.e. the Dreamers), Clark Canyon, Dexter Canyon, outlying Buttermilk Crags, Wheeler Crest, Mountain Light Wall, and Heaven. These are all arguably "second-rate" crags vs. the most popular ORG/Buttermilks/Tablelands combination that draws <90% of visiting climbers. EDIT: In response to David's point, the Honda Element is very low clearance for an SUV/crossover (6.9 inches vs. 8.7 for a stock Subaru Forester), so it isn't so surprising that driving on rough roads results in damage. With my tires, I probably get 9.2 inches of ground clearance (no lift, just slightly larger tires). I'm not sure of the head gasket issue/suspension issue, but it seems more related to driving style than fundamentals of the car. It is true that one can't expect to drive an SUV/crossover like you would a real 4WD jeep. I have not had any mechanical issues with my cars that could be plausibly related to off-road use. |
Ben Horowitzwrote: Drive any AWD vehicle without low gearing up a steep, loose gravel/sand hill and it will overheat (now try it in the AZ heat to boot). The suspension issues were more from overuse than driving style. Sure, I could have avoided them by never going over 20MPH on dirt roads, but who actually does that? If you spend 3-4 hours driving moderately rough dirt roads per week at a reasonable speed then it will wear down a cheap stock suspension. I was all about my Element until it started falling apart on me - never had any issues driving it around the Southeast and in Colorado. I even lived out of it for a few months with my SO, and it served me well, overall. The roads in/around AZ really take their toll if you get out a lot. I know everyone keeps mentioning that one magical Subaru that made it out to the homestead, but I'm betting the road was in better shape than usual - 4Lo with high clearance is required to make that drive with confidence that you won't jack your shit up right now. To answer OP's question, here is a list of places that I would not attempt without 4x4/high clearance:
There are lots of others where 4WD/high clearance is not necessary, but you could still easily mess up a low clearance, non-4x4 with enough use or a small mistake. |
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any crag that involves driving I-70 in colorado between october and april |
Nkane 1wrote: Can confirm. Fun hike you had that night, huh? |
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It still seems like the question isn't clear yet. Do you mean "what crags can only be reached with a 4x4 vehicle in even the best road/trail conditions even taking your time (and maybe walking the last mile or so)?" That's a very short list indeed. Or do you mean, "what crags will I be able to get to faster/more often/for more of the year/with less worry in a 4x4 vehicle?" That may very well include driving I-70 in the snow. I think you're going to keep getting people who seem to be disagreeing when they're actually just answering different questions. |
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The Upper Fins is a reasonable hike if you don't have 4wd, it's totally not necessary |
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Good snow chains on a FWD sedan will get you more places than standard 4wd. |
Pete Swrote: If you are talking about snowy mountains, sure. Chains wont do you much good in the desert. |
Pete Swrote: How will chains help with rock crawling? |
Pete Swrote: No they won’t. Also, this is 2021 and chains are basically obsolete for passenger cars. If you have a FWD and drive on snowy roads a lot, what you really want is a good set of winter tires. |
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You need for real 4WD lots of places in the desert, but these are pretty adventurous seldom climbed places. Getting to the Twin Priest Tower - Act of Contrition was hard in a Jeep Rubicon - you mostly just see ATVs and dirt bikes back there. Going into The Maze District without a 4WD could lead to death by exposure. |
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Sigh.... Needed for rock climbing areas? Almost nowhere. But geez....  To get to that? My CRV could do it....  ...when it's dry. But I'd miss out on this...  It wasn't a rock climbing trip, the five or six mile hike after the Toyota Tacoma was parked, but now I know my Honda could -maybe- get there, maybe, in snow, or at least cold enough there's no risk of the mud thawing out. Of course the crux then, would be finding the road at all, lol!  To me? There's not much point living where I live, if I automatically rule out huge chunks of public land. Best, Helen |
