Chipping vs. Gluing

Sprayloard Overstokerwrote:

... It is literally worthless shit without comfortizing the pockets that are filled with razors and piranha teeth. ...

Then we scouted new lines and starting putting up a few routes and we were like "Totally get it now". We still got complaints that our routes were left too sharp and painful.

Maybe we can petition some of the gym climbing hold manufacturers to design some really sharp holds to "condition" us weaklings and better prepare us for the real world out there?

I just wrote a finely crafted 3 paragraphs and accidentally deleted it all.  Long story short don't talk shit until you've developed chossy limestone..the Grey area is huge.

Climbing is about rising up to the challenge nature presented us IMO, and respecting fellow climbers enough to preserve that challenge for them as much as possible. So for chipping people have chipped routes because "it would never go without it" but later someone climbs it a higher rating than thought possible earlier. So as a blanket rule you just have to leave it as nature created it as much as you can. Sure that means there will be some blank sections that will never go, but you've got to have some "rule" or "line in the sand" you don't cross, otherwise where do you draw the line? 

Gluing is different because it's an attempt to preserve the challenge nature presented us. For maybe the first 10 or 100 people to climb it they may get the climb nature created, but then the hold breaks off, and then it's not how nature created it because humans have altered it. It's much more of a grey area IMO.

Claudine Longetwrote:

I had a line that had 50' of really fun 5.9 jugs, then a 10' section of glacier scrape featureless blankness, then another 50' of technical 5.12

I ultimately walked away.

If I were in this situation and really wanted to put up that line, I would just put in a 10' bolt ladder and rate the thing 5.12 A0.  No harm in that, and if some super-human 5.14d climber wants to come along and snatch the first free ascent, great!  Then the route can be graded 5.12 A0 / 5.14d

Wild Iris is just another rural, short and sharp little limestone pile that had to be chipped and drilled to be any fun, certainly not world class limestone. Camping there used to be world class though, Im sure its a bit different now.

The rock presents itself as is and you should climb it as is. No glue or chipping. I really do not care about your "project" or your tender fingers.

Or your weak mind!

Patrikwrote:

Maybe we can petition some of the gym climbing hold manufacturers to design some really sharp holds to "condition" us weaklings and better prepare us for the real world out there?

You literally dont know wtf you are talking about.

Carry on.

M Mwrote:

Wild Iris is just another rural, short and sharp little limestone pile that had to be chipped and drilled to be any fun, certainly not world class limestone. Camping there used to be world class though, Im sure its a bit different now.

Tell us more about your experience with "world class" limestone and your experience putting up routes there.

Sprayloard Overstokerwrote:

Tell us more about your experience with "world class" limestone and your experience putting up routes there.

I'm not here to kiss and tell repeatedly but I will say you will see my name in a few Thai guidebooks. Europe has some world class limestone as well, most of it here is manufactured choss.

Sprayloard Overstokerwrote:

Tell me more about your experience putting up routes on Liimestone like that found at Wild Iris?

It is literally worthless shit without comfortizing the pockets that are filled with razors and piranha teeth. No one on earth would climb it without cleaning. No one.

Before we ever went out there and heard about comfortizing pockets we thought it was lame.

Then we scouted new lines and starting putting up a few routes and we were like "Totally get it now". We still got complaints that our routes were left too sharp and painful.

So let me get this straight: your logic is:

1. I have experience chipping.
2. You don't.
3. Nobody would climb my routes if I didn't chip them because they're "worthless shit". (Your words, not mine).
4. Therefore chipping is okay.

Look, I get your why you'd want to chip when the choice is chip a route or no route exists. But realize that you have neither an obligation nor a god-given right to put a route there. At least recognize that you didn't have to chip a route there.

There could not be a route there and that wouldn't be a problem. There could be a route there with sharp holds that nobody would climb, and that also wouldn't be a problem. People could complain, and that wouldn't be a problem. You're not solving any problems by chipping, because none of these things are problems.

You chipped the routes you chipped because you wanted to. Not because you had to. Not because you had a right to. Because you wanted to. Take some responsibility for your own choices and stop blaming the rock and other people.

FWIW I'm not even saying what you did was wrong--I don't know enough about the area to say that. I'm saying that if you really think what you did was right, you don't need the excuses you're using.

David Kwrote:

So let me get this straight: your logic is:

1. I have experience chipping.
2. You don't.
3. Nobody would climb my routes if I didn't chip them because they're "worthless shit". (Your words, not mine).
4. Therefore chipping is okay.

Look, I get your why you'd want to chip when the choice is chip a route or no route exists. But realize that you have neither an obligation nor a god-given right to put a route there. At least recognize that you didn't have to chip a route there.

There could not be a route there and that wouldn't be a problem. There could be a route there with sharp holds that nobody would climb, and that also wouldn't be a problem. People could complain, and that wouldn't be a problem. You're not solving any problems by chipping, because none of these things are problems.

You chipped the routes you chipped because you wanted to. Not because you had to. Not because you had a right to. Because you wanted to. Take some responsibility for your own choices and stop blaming the rock and other people.

FWIW I'm not even saying what you did was wrong--I don't know enough about the area to say that. I'm saying that if you really think what you did was right, you don't need the excuses you're using.

Do you know what comfortizing is?

Matt Wetmorewrote:

Do you know what comfortizing is?

A form of chipping with the excuse that the existing hold isn't comfortable.

David Kwrote:

So let me get this straight: your logic is:

1. I have experience chipping.
2. You don't.
3. Nobody would climb my routes if I didn't chip them because they're "worthless shit". (Your words, not mine).
4. Therefore chipping is okay.

Look, I get your why you'd want to chip when the choice is chip a route or no route exists. But realize that you have neither an obligation nor a god-given right to put a route there. At least recognize that you didn't have to chip a route there.

There could not be a route there and that wouldn't be a problem. There could be a route there with sharp holds that nobody would climb, and that also wouldn't be a problem. People could complain, and that wouldn't be a problem. You're not solving any problems by chipping, because none of these things are problems.

You chipped the routes you chipped because you wanted to. Not because you had to. Not because you had a right to. Because you wanted to. Take some responsibility for your own choices and stop blaming the rock and other people.

FWIW I'm not even saying what you did was wrong--I don't know enough about the area to say that. I'm saying that if you really think what you did was right, you don't need the excuses you're using.

He's not making excuses, he's telling you what he did. I've comfortized hundreds of new routes and feel no need to defend or excuse my actions.

I also know the conceptual difference between comfortizing and chipping.

Jim Tittwrote:

He's not making excuses, he's telling you what he did.

I pointed out what the excuses were.

"I comfortized the holds" is telling me what he did. "I had to comfortize the holds because they were sharp and people would either not climb the routes or complain about them if I didn't comfortize" is making excuses.

I've comfortized hundreds of new routes and feel no need to defend or excuse my actions.

That's fine. I've seen enough of your posts that I would guess you did so conservatively, with thought and care, and within the ethics of the areas where you were developing.

I also know the conceptual difference between comfortizing and chipping.

Chipping to make the hold more comfortable is just a specific kind of chipping.

Again, I'm not saying it's wrong to comfortize necessarily. I'm saying treat it with the same gravity you would treat any decision to modify the rock, since your actions can't be undone.

I'd argue that if you're going into it with the idea that you *have to* comfortize because other people will not climb the route or complain if you don't, you're making the decision the wrong way. Those people will be dead in 100 years--your decision to chip will still be there.

David K, sorry to say but you're out of your element. Go check out some sport climbing development up close, and report back. The distinctions of many of these terms and practices will become more clear.

I'd like to say a sincere "Thank you" to all the limestone developers who comfortize holds.

The extra effort is much appreciated

David Kwrote:

There could not be a route there and that wouldn't be a problem. There could be a route there with sharp holds that nobody would climb, and that also wouldn't be a problem. People could complain, and that wouldn't be a problem. You're not solving any problems by chipping, because none of these things are problems.

In this specific case (Wild Iris) we aren't just talking about one route, but an entire area that is enjoyed by many and played a role in the advancement of  US difficulty standards. I won't claim it is world class, but it is a great destination that wouldn't be nearly as good or as popular without filing down pockets. Its not just about a few people complaining - it is one of the gems of US sport climbing basically not existing as a worthy climbing area if not for comfortizing. Would that be worth it to you, to avoid the sacrilege of filing down a few mm of limestone on the edge of sharp pockets? 

Ben Horowitzwrote:

I guess there could be some amount of rock dependency here... In my (admittedly limited) experience developing routes/boulders I've never used anything other than a wire brush; if the flake doesn't dislodge by hand, with rigorous wire brushing, and doesn't pose a serious risk if it falls off, I wouldn't remove it. Like I said in the first post, if it does pose a safety risk then use of those tools would be "justified." 

Must be nice.  

Here in the land of freeze-thaw, I've accidentally kicked off several-hundred-pound rocks while on rappel.   A lot of similar stuff won't come off with a wire brush, but needs to come off for the climbing to be anything like safe. 

Also, boulder development may be different than route development for that.

This is similar to some bolting discussions where some people approach it from a positions of principle rather than pragmaticism. i.e. the principled stances are chipping (or bolting) is never okay or the other side may say chipping is fine. The pragmatic stance is more nuanced and based on thinking things through and making decisions based on reason. Why is chipping to be avoided? IMO opinion the main reason is because you may be robbing some people of the chance to do the route as nature created it. Chipping a route to make it easier robs someone of the chance to do it in it's natural state. That's bogus. Chipping to remove a sharp crystal in a pocket is a different story. Will anyone in the future really want the sharp crystal there? Of course this is a fine line and a lot of thought needs to go into it and it's subjective, so there will never be full agreement.