Chipping vs. Gluing

I've climbed a butt load of limestone and seen it being worked on enough to know some "developers" are way more heavy handed than others. Some areas are unclimbable without some light chipping/comfortising for sure, I just know that every time I have participated in that it felt like a grey area, enough to make sure I wasn't being watched or filmed. I'll bring a sledgehammer and a crowbar along before glue but who knows, maybe one day I'll find some choss to glue up.

Cole Lawrencewrote:

Chipping holds makes a self limiting, sustainable resource unsustainable. It allows climbers to create routes anywhere and pack climbs in. It does not preserve the rocks natural ability to dictate where routes are possible and where they are not. Chipping holds vs cleaning - the developers should be able to know which activity  they are participating in. I have never been confused developing “am I cleaning or am I chipping a hold?”. Give me a break, such a BS argument.

So the answer for me has always been, how will the influx of routes in an area impact the natural resources? How much sense does it make to develop this route?  What legacy do I want to leave, will I be proud of what I created? I have felt pride and shame after developing routes. I have removed routes that did not go, did not make sense, where chipping or gluing would have set a really bad example.

Something to think about when glueing. If the hold does break off, there will be a big glue stain on the rock for all to see. What example does that set for the future of your area? Where does the long game timeline of these actions take your community in 10-20 years. If the answer is anywhere close to the outcome in Ten Sleep, which has created a national response from land managers, maybe think twice before altering rock?

Thoughful alteration by one person can inadvertently breed thoughtless alteration by many. The stories of development tactics spread through climbing communities and become common place, before you know it people are advocating for alteration. This is not the OG spirit of climbing, where at one point the rock was the primary decision maker, led the dance, and decided when you could pass or not.  

Just to give you a scenario route developers in smith face. You see a door knob style hold, it is cracked all the way around but you can put body weight on it. Do you glue it and hope it holds, do you smack it and hope it breaks? If it breaks un cleanly do you file it? In this situation is it really that clear if thats chipping or cleaning?

I would also say the original spirit of climbing had no consistent ethics about chipping. The Nose is chipped and I can't remember which area in France is all chipped.  So chipping is not new.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Just to give you a scenario route developers in smith face. You see a door knob style hold, it is cracked all the way around but you can put body weight on it. Do you glue it and hope it holds, do you smack it and hope it breaks? If it breaks un cleanly do you file it? In this situation is it really that clear if thats chipping or cleaning?

I would also say the original spirit of climbing had no consistent ethics about chipping. The Nose is chipped and I can't remember which area in France is all chipped.  So chipping is not new.

Not new, but it's 2020. We all woke!

Frank Steinwrote:

Mark, I know that you have been climbing a long time, but have you ever climbed limestone or volcanic tuff?  If so, I am certain that you have climbed a glued route and did not even know it. Glue reinforcement should be unnoticed if done appropriately.

In the mid 90s, a friend broke a key crux hold on a very popular route in Rifle. The developer made him glue it back on. To this day, most are unaware of the story or that they are yarding on a glued hold. 

How does a developer make someone glue a hold back on? At gunpoint?

Parachute Adamswrote:

How does a developer make someone glue a hold back on? At gunpoint?

My friend brought it to him and apologized. He was told in no uncertain terms that he had to glue it back on, and so he did. The climb, considered a very popular classic, shall remain unnamed to protect the guilty. :-)

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Just to give you a scenario route developers in smith face. You see a door knob style hold, it is cracked all the way around but you can put body weight on it. Do you glue it and hope it holds, do you smack it and hope it breaks? If it breaks un cleanly do you file it? In this situation is it really that clear if thats chipping or cleaning?

I would also say the original spirit of climbing had no consistent ethics about chipping. The Nose is chipped and I can't remember which area in France is all chipped.  So chipping is not new.

I want to iderate that I am not telling people what to do. I am just giving my opinion on the effects of altering rock to make it climbable.

In the situation you mentioned. I have been in this situation. My approach is to pick clean lines, remove all loose and very questionable holds, this comes with knowledge of the area and rock. Ive seen paper thin holds that are super strong. Detune super sharp features. See what is left after that. If the route will require noticable and numerous spots of alteration I remove my hardware and move on. It makes the pitches that do go more special, Sets a good example, and spreads out climbs for more sustainable crags.

I will climb anywhere, I dont dog on others tactics. Usually places that are drilled to shit or super manufactured get ridiculed and experience “organic” backlash from land managers and the local community. So I just try to have fun and be proud of what my practice is. (Which is always growing and evolving).

Finally IMO still think every developer knows when they are chipping or drilling a hold. They know. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I would also say the original spirit of climbing had no consistent ethics about chipping. The Nose is chipped and I can't remember which area in France is all chipped.  So chipping is not new.

Forget chipping. When I was in the Verdon Gorge in 1988 or so, there were climbs with glued-on gym holds.

Opal Ridge Traverse in the Rockies as of a few years ago... :P

From: gripped.com/news/artificial…

Cole Lawrencewrote:

Finally IMO still think every developer knows when they are chipping or drilling a hold. They know. 

Keep telling yourself that. The grey area seems to become more clear on both sides of the spectrum. I've seen plenty of shoddy work in that not every line needs to be "developed" for lead. People sometimes treat the rock like they treat the money burning a hole in their pocket, they get tunnel vision. Tensleep...

Rpropswrote:

I have a 1:1 policy. Everything I chip off 1 route I glue onto another. #conservationist

Damn, you're good.

I had a line that had 50' of really fun 5.9 jugs, then a 10' section of glacier scrape featureless blankness, then another 50' of technical 5.12

I ultimately walked away.

But I was seriously considering bolting 2 gym holds on to make it go. I figured if I used a 5 piece the only real damage would be a sleeve that could get filled. This would have been minimal damage compared to either glueing or chipping but definitely would have caused more conniptions. 

I have a route where after 20' of one and 2 finger pockets there is a Thank God end of crux flake. The flake flexes if you hit it without being flush to the stone. We all are aware of how to reach for it, but if we publicize it it will need reinforcement first.

I also have a rule about comfortizing. If it makes my fingers bleed it goes. Unless it's a feature of the route. 

Change "i have a route" to "there is this rock face" and it might be good.

Claudine Longetwrote:

I had a line that had 50' of really fun 5.9 jugs, then a 10' section of glacier scrape featureless blankness, then another 50' of technical 5.12

I ultimately walked away.

But I was seriously considering bolting 2 gym holds on to make it go. I figured if I used a 5 piece the only real damage would be a sleeve that could get filled. This would have been minimal damage compared to either glueing or chipping but definitely would have caused more conniptions.

The problem here is that one man's glacier scrape featureless blankness is another man's heinous 5.15d mono crimps. Unless you're climbing at that level, you don't really know. And 5.15d climbers don't know what the next generation's strongest climbers will be able to do.

Climbing's history is full of things thought to be impossible which went. In the most egregious cases, they went before they were deemed impossible and modified: Ray Jardine chipped the Jardine traverse because he deemed it impossible to free, not knowing that Lynn Hill had already freed it and graded it a meager 5.12.

I have a route where after 20' of one and 2 finger pockets there is a Thank God end of crux flake. The flake flexes if you hit it without being flush to the stone. We all are aware of how to reach for it, but if we publicize it it will need reinforcement first.

Why's that?

Let's not pretend that reinforcing it is preserving what's there: you're adding to the rock. If the rock was a flexy flake before and it's not after, you've changed the rock just as surely as if you chipped it.

Again, you don't know. You have no idea what that rock would do absent your intervention. You say the flake flexes if you hit it without being flush to the stone: how do you know that? I'm guessing someone hit it and it didn't break? Hmm.

Beginners have been yarding on Fire Crack Flake in Stone Fort for 30 years and the old timers say it's been flexing that entire time. Conversely, this well-chalked jug that people had been yarding on fell, without anyone identifying it as dangerous, seemingly due to reasons unrelated to people yarding on it. The rock is changing with or without us, and I would be careful not to overestimate our role in that change.

David Kwrote:

The problem here is that one man's glacier scrape featureless blankness is another man's heinous 5.15d mono crimps. Unless you're climbing at that level, you don't really know. And 5.15d climbers don't know what the next generation's strongest climbers will be able to do.

Climbing's history is full of things thought to be impossible which went. In the most egregious cases, they went before they were deemed impossible and modified: Ray Jardine chipped the Jardine traverse because he deemed it impossible to free, not knowing that Lynn Hill had already freed it and graded it a meager 5.12.

You might want to check your history on this one... not quite accurate.

Rob Pwrote:

You might want to check your history on this one... not quite accurate.

If you'd care to be more specific, I'd be happy to correct my post.

Sorry, should have specified. Jardine chipped the traverse in 1981. You never know, but it’s doubtful Lynn free climbed the pitch before that.

Rob Pwrote:

Sorry, should have specified. Jardine chipped the traverse in 1981. You never know, but it’s doubtful Lynn free climbed the pitch before that.

I seem to remember a SuperTopo post where someone mentioned that Hill freed the traverse and graded it hard 5.12--I do generally have a good memory for this sort of thing, but admittedly that's not a great source, especially since I can no longer find it. *sigh*

EDIT: The most reputable source I can find quotes Lynn Hill saying, "It’s difficult, especially at the start where some footholds and a fundamental handhold have been improved. They could have done without these, but it would have been even harder." That seems to indicate that Lynn Hill thought it was possible but didn't actually free it.

IF IT'S POSSIBLE IT'S BEEN DONE - IF IT'S IMPOSSIBLE IT WILL BE DONE.

Mountains are art rocks are art. Climbing can be an art 

Chipping and gluing AIN"T 

Glue is only for bolts. If a flake or loose rock can be removed by hand without tools it should be removed. If a large death block is precarious or very clearly dangerous bring the tools necessary to remove it. Comfortizing holds, in my opinion, is unnecessary. If it is so thin it will cut you, it will probably break anyway. Otherwise deal with the pain.

Shane Fwrote:

Glue is only for bolts. If a flake or loose rock can be removed by hand without tools it should be removed. If a large death block is precarious or very clearly dangerous bring the tools necessary to remove it. Comfortizing holds, in my opinion, is unnecessary. If it is so thin it will cut you, it will probably break anyway. Otherwise deal with the pain.

Tell me more about your experience putting up routes on Liimestone like that found at Wild Iris?

It is literally worthless shit without comfortizing the pockets that are filled with razors and piranha teeth. No one on earth would climb it without cleaning. No one.

Before we ever went out there and heard about comfortizing pockets we thought it was lame.

Then we scouted new lines and starting putting up a few routes and we were like "Totally get it now". We still got complaints that our routes were left too sharp and painful.