Why are route names important?

Jason Millswrote: There's a route at my local crag called Anorexia (It's a little thin); it was put up in 1997. It's thin and hard, it hurts my fingers ... anyway ... I put in a bit of a squeeze job route just to its right last summer -- I named the route Bulimia because ... yeah, Anorexia and Bulimia, haha, why not?

I got "called out" recently (not aggressively, more like, "Really?") for the Bulimia name; I was told it's "not welcoming."

I was a little "offended" (at first) -- it's just a stupid, meaningless name, who cares, etc. ...

24 hours later I decided to change the name.

The name's not a big deal to me, but maybe it is to someone else -- I'd rather people climb the route and like it/enjoy it/hate it than judge it (and its developer) based on some stupid name.

The wall is named Psychology Wall -- I renamed the route Rock Therapy.

Yeah, that's kind of lame, but what's in a name, anyway?

what is with this new "welcoming" stuff?

Bulimia is a thing in climbing and should not be put in the shadows but a disease that should be discussed openly.

hillbilly hijinkswrote: Bulimia is a thing in climbing and should not be put in the shadows but a disease that should be discussed openly.

Discussed openly like on a route name where you can kick its ass?

Matthew Jaggers wrote:

Agreed. Dont steal it!

Edit: You can have that one, I'm going with "Advocates For Snowflake Justice"

Tears of the Social Justice Warrior

The people who name routes with racist and misogynistic names are people who have no creative capacity. A good route name is one that makes you think, but works for everyone, like a popular song lyric.

Fart jokes, subvert racist quips, mentions of female sex organs etc, are just idiotic and usually shows that the FA did not really think hard about a name. It shows they just regurgitated whatever they thought was funny at the time (I remember 2003, Fred durst, Eminem, Christina Aguilera, South Park, etc.) Regretful times.

Regretful times- now there's a route name! Maybe for an R rated, offwidth or really chossy route.

 "Why are route names important?"

Why do you ask, Two Dogs Fornicating?

Fart jokes, subvert racist quips, mentions of female sex organs etc, are just idiotic and usually shows that the FA did not really think hard about a name

If there is room for thoughtful, well crafted, adult-like names there needs to be room for crass, juvenile, spur of the moment names too. After all, juveniles are responsible for most of the first ascents anyway. 

It's a shame when a beautiful climb has a stupid name. It is a disservice to the climb. Imagine if Pink Floyd (or whatever band you like) was named Fart Titties.

And if you would like a band named Fart Titties, then you are an idiot. 

Climber Davewrote:  Why is there such a need to take ownership of routes on public lands?  What is the point of a route name? other than to give you info on the route?
Why do the route developers names matter so much to the point that they can discriminate against other people?

In order to present mediocre opportunities for mediocre trolls to do their thing.
What fascinates me is that they had the foresight to start this 100+ years ago!

Climber Davewrote:Today I climbed a  route called “F*** you” in boulder canyon. Would people find that offensive? Probably. However, it’s a lot different then walking up to a route called “black lesbian nightmare” or “hitlers struggle.” Even if there is some inside joke or they are a song title. In both cases we chose to skip that route or even leave the crag.

You would skip a route because of the name? If it's choss, sure, but skipping it because of the name in the guidebook seems a little excessive.

Actually, check that — I think we just found the solution to crowded crags!   

Todd Berlier wrote:
"Child Labor" because my kids helped me scrub the moss off the bottom. I changed the name because even though I dont think anyone would be offended by it, I can imagine some people would. is that a snowflake, mamas boy response? maybe, probably even, but "controlled burn" is a better name, IMO

FWIW "Child Labor" is a great name given the problem's back story. I personally would've kept it, but… it's your FA!

christoph benellswrote:
It's a shame when a beautiful climb has a stupid name. It is a disservice to the climb. Imagine if Pink Floyd (or whatever band you like) was named Fart Titties.

And if you would like a band named Fart Titties, then you are an idiot. 

I don't know... I've always been fond of the Barenaked Ladies, and they specifically picked that name just so that's what would show up on the signs of the bars they were booking early on... 

christoph benellswrote:
Imagine if Pink Floyd (or whatever band you like) was named Fart Titties.
And if you would like a band named Fart Titties, then you are an idiot. 

Lets see:     Joy Division,  NWA,  Bathtub Shitter,  Dead Kennedys,  Sex Pistols,  Butthole Surfers,  Steely Dan,  Tool,  The Meat Puppets,    The Flaming Lips......Are you saying that the fans of these bands, (arguably) some of the greatest in rock n roll history, are idiots?    What about the songs, again some of which are considered the best of all time, that are about genitalia and masturbation?   No creative capacity, huh?

Sorry, your analogy was a terrible one.

Matthew Jaggers wrote: If Pink Flyod was named Fart Titties, or even Tittie Farts, I'd be blasting Tittie Farts out the window daily. Yeah, the Local is somewhat right. Pretty bad assumption about creativity there, but I think your point is also somewhat valid. If your go-to is always the first immature fart joke that comes to mind for route names, then you're probably not that creative.

If you like Pink Flyod, you'd LOVE Lad Zeppelon!

In San Diego there are a million boulders. It is not uncommon for a young immature kid to crank off an obscure v3 and in the glory of the moment declare the name of the new problem. About half the time this name will be stupid and purposefully offensive all in fun. I have over the years edited the really bad names out of my topos that I make. I have been given shit for this. I tell kids that Mountain Project is there for them and if they are real proud of the name then go to Mountain Project and declare the name there. I have yet to see anyone follow through on this. What I have seen are new names that are more thoughtful. People need to be checked sometimes even if it makes them angry. A little time passes and most people are capable of being sensible. Some people never get it. Too bad for them. Creativity is your moment of choice. Take a moment to reflect how you will feel about your choice in five years. Who else might read what you have chosen. What would your mother say? How about your employer or new friends you might make in the future? Sure it's fun to have a crude laugh with your friends in the moment but write those words down at your own peril.

DontHassleMeImLocalwrote:

Lets see:     Joy Division,  NWA,  Bathtub Shitter,  Dead Kennedys,  Sex Pistols,  Butthole Surfers,  Steely Dan,  Tool,  The Meat Puppets,    The Flaming Lips......Are you saying that the fans of these bands, (arguably) some of the greatest in rock n roll history, are idiots?    What about the songs, again some of which are considered the best of all time, that are about genitalia and masturbation?   No creative capacity, huh?

Sorry, your analogy was a terrible one.

Greatest in history??? Yikes.....

Gumby boy kingwrote:

Greatest in history??? Yikes.....

HAHA. I didnt say I agreed with the sentiment.  However, some of those bands are in the R&R Hall of Fame, and some are on the list of potential inductees.  Opinions of R&R HoF aside

DontHassleMeImLocalwrote:

Lets see:     Joy Division,  NWA,  Bathtub Shitter,  Dead Kennedys,  Sex Pistols,  Butthole Surfers,  Steely Dan,  Tool,  The Meat Puppets,    The Flaming Lips......Are you saying that the fans of these bands, (arguably) some of the greatest in rock n roll history, are idiots?    What about the songs, again some of which are considered the best of all time, that are about genitalia and masturbation?   No creative capacity, huh?

Sorry, your analogy was a terrible one.

Never heard bathtub shitter but yes- that is a stupid name. All the other bands you listed came up with something that hugs that acceptability line so fine, that it catches your mind. Also, those band names can mean many different things to different people. This is the level of creativity I am talking about...if tool was named penis, would they have the same success?

Dan Knisellwrote:

Yes there is Matthew but the cancel culture crowd now have all the tools to go fishing for route names they think might be offensive. Who gets to draw the line?  You?  Nick?  Me?  That’s the whole thing with freedom of speech it goes for everyone even if you don’t like what they have to say.

Hateful names should be addressed.  All of these route names are placed under one umbrella when we all know that’s not the case. You even said so yourself.

The word suicide always drums up lots of emotions for me. Like many others perhaps reading this I have had the unfortunate experience of dealing with the suicide of a loved one. How about all those suicide names?  Every single time I see that word or even hear it uttered it is a reminder. It hurts. Sometimes a lot. But those are my emotions to deal with. Not yours or anyone else’s. It’s not Mountain Projects job to deal with my emotions. Am I flagging names with suicide in their names? Fuck no. 

 Give an inch, take a mile. That’s exactly what’s happening here. The fact you don’t understand why people try to protect free speech blows my mind. Don’t conflate that with the race/gender/religious issue at hand. A real race issue was addressed and it became a shitshow Orwellian scrub down of epic proportions.

First off, I think we agree more than we disagree. I do understand why protecting free speech is important - but, I think it can be argued that route names on MP specifically are not protected speech. Businesses have the right to limit speech that is under their control. 'Obscenity' and 'defamation' are also established first amendment exceptions, so maybe the debate we should really be having is whether discriminatory route names fall into that category.

I'm not advocating for an 'orwellian scrub down' either. I'm not advocating for any governing body or power to punish anyone for saying the wrong thing. I am saying that people should really consider what their values are and whether naming or defending routes with such names aligns with those values. FA-ists, guidebook authors, and MP can do that on their own, and many have (starting several years ago, not just now, at least locally to me) can and should do that on their own. Not saying this applies to you, but I mostly just think defending names that many in the community are deeming harmful is kind of a weird hill to die on. There are bigger and more 'real' issues out there for sure. Changing route names definitely doesn't end racism, but it's one way to at least not openly condone it as a community. 

We at least agree that hateful names should be addressed. I'm not sure where you see hateful + vulgar names being put under the same umbrella? But I could be missing something.

FrankPSwrote: You joined Mountain Project today to stir the pot? 

Yeah, what the hell, that’s your job! He’s after yer jerb!!!

Matthew Tangemanwrote:

First off, I think we agree more than we disagree. I do understand why protecting free speech is important - but, I think it can be argued that route names on MP specifically are not protected speech. Businesses have the right to limit speech that is under their control. 'Obscenity' and 'defamation' are also established first amendment exceptions, so maybe the debate we should really be having is whether discriminatory route names fall into that category.

I'm not advocating for an 'orwellian scrub down' either. I'm not advocating for any governing body or power to punish anyone for saying the wrong thing. I am saying that people should really consider what their values are and whether naming or defending routes with such names aligns with those values. FA-ists, guidebook authors, and MP can do that on their own, and many have (starting several years ago, not just now, at least locally to me) can and should do that on their own. Not saying this applies to you, but I mostly just think defending names that many in the community are deeming harmful is kind of a weird hill to die on. There are bigger and more 'real' issues out there for sure. Changing route names definitely doesn't end racism, but it's one way to at least not openly condone it as a community.

We at least agree that hateful names should be addressed. I'm not sure where you see hateful + vulgar names being put under the same umbrella? But I could be missing something.

Matthew, I’ll start from the end and work up. The tool to flag names is putting all these names under the same umbrella. The link to the list of names is gone. Nick perhaps took it down. It was taking forever to load and maybe there was a bug. I digress. All these names get flagged and then data is complied. Then a decision is made. If MP doesn’t want to disclose the name thats on them but they don’t get to change it regardless of how awful or vulgar or silly it is.  

Please do not get me wrong I do not condone hate but I do defend peoples rights to name their route whatever they want. If you think that’s a weird hill to die on please refer to when the ACLU defended the KKK’s rights to free speech. Do I think it’s terrible?  Fuck yes  Do we get to take away their rights to free speech?  Fuck no. There is a giant reason behind the ACLU defending the KKK’s rights to free speech. I’m sure it made many people who do great work for the ACLU cringe to have to back such a hateful organization. It’s all in the name of free speech. Defending terrible route names does not in any way mean I’m defending the name itself. Those two things are often merged together as if they’re are the same.

Obscenity is is part of American culture and it spans across all races and genders. Your favorite movie or tv show probably has some obscenity in it. You may think it’s too much, too far or too explicit for your ears or your grandmas ears or your children’s ears but we cannot and should not take away the right to create that content. It may be divisive but we must not go down a path of destroying freedoms to erase racism. We must have open discourse. We must open our minds and accept our differences. We must open our arms and hearts to each other. We must say hey that route Fucking the Dog, Double D’s, Burt Gives Blow Jobs, etc. might have a real shitty name but let’s see if it’s any good. Maybe leave a comment that says hey this is a shitty name. Perhaps they will change it. But straight forcing a change is wrong

If Nick and the new mountain project overlords want to redact names and make you click a link to see potentially divisive or offensive names I wouldn’t oppose. Once you click you have then made that choice to see what’s behind the curtain. They have already done it with users who are flagged frequently in the forums. The tools are there to make that change.

Lastly there is no but in free speech. You don’t get to draw lines with free speech. Then guess what it’s isn’t free speech anymore. It’s up to Mountain Project to decide if they want to publish it or not. We should learn from our mistakes instead of erasing them and pretending that everything is okay.

Someone flagged a route of mine that I named Strange Fruit. Strange Fruit is a song by one of my favorite bands, Catherine Wheel, and the route had a small berry bush growing in the crack at the lip. I love the song, I thought the berry bush was cool, so I named it Strange Fruit.

Strange FruitCatherine Wheel
I've been inside this fruit when juices flow
But the taste is just a memory you hold
There is no real decay
No feeling of the skin
No juiceStrange fruit, strange fruit, strange fruit
It never lets that sun out
Strange fruitThis is sweet the soul the flesh I wish
It's the liquid that I miss
There is no real decay
The flesh is barely bruised
It's no useStrange fruit, strange fruit
Sonic juice inside my head
This fever is so concentrated
Oh no what a shame...Climb the tree and shake this passion down
But this fruit won't even kiss the ground
There is no real decay
The flesh is barely grazed
There's no wayStrange fruit, strange fruit, strange fruit