New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #10

Oldtradguy wrote:

Dragons

It is not choss. It is like climbing in the gym but you are outside. Take a baseball, softball, golf ball, etc. cut them into different parts and then stick them into the wall. Some holds look good until you try to hold onto them and you slip off. Other holds that look bad but are great holds. It is a very good place.

I’d disagree about the not choss comment. Maple is great fun, but is absolutely choss. Just look at some of the route names: Excavation, Ground Work, When Cobbles Fly, Zoaster Toaster (named after a dog that was “toasted.”

dragons wrote: Helen, Maple Canyon is conglomerate rock. Isn't that just another word for "choss"?

The Gunks rock is conglomerate   It all depends on the matrix.  But yes, that rock at Maple does look uninviting at first glance.

Mark Orsag wrote: Gym leading as training for outdoor leading has generally worked for me. Several things to remember though: 1. When you go outdoors, it is going to feel harder (obviously). 2. Gym is safer too, but you can still get hurt with sprained ankles and so on. But it would take a truly epic screw up to get seriously hurt. 3. If you are really going to “put out” (still laughing at Lori’s witty response to that), and try to lead at your limit indoors, realize that many gym lines are not set for lead. The clips will possibly be more difficult than the rest of the route. Besides doing live leads, I mock lead indoors to hardwire the motions involved and to save my ankles (see point#2).

Only if your gym has bad/inexperienced route setters.

There are actually quite a few areas that are pretty steep and safe to fall at starting as low as 5.9/10-.  You can generally find such routes at conglomerate, limestone or sandstone crags. At 5.7? Not so much. But hey, isn’t the whole point of sport climbing to try hard and fall lots?

dragons.

Thank you for the generous response and the encouragement. Reading about your experience is helpful.

I did take a solo trip last fall and found great partners (via MP) on 2 separate visits to City of Rocks but also visited Vedauwoo and Lander without partners and that sure was painful. I think that with a little more planning and practice, a little less shyness, and the ability to follow the circuit of itinerant climbers, I'd probably find folks to climb with most days.

Geez. Just have someone else lead, and climb anyway you can. Save leading for what looks reasonable to try. For me, locally? Only part of a route, maybe, and no reason to bother with it if I'm not needed to help get the rope up. A hefty percent of the anchors are out of reach for me, so I'm screwed anyway, lol! I follow on top rope and clean the things while hanging.

That said, I've lead at other places, and will do so again. There's plenty out there, just use your judgement. Or, just do the piece of a route that appeals to you to try. Don't confuse "style" with ethics. Ethics is taking care of a place, style is adding a sit start to a six foot tall boulder problem or following other "rules" arbitrarily set by others. Like shaving your armpits before donning that tank top on a late winter day. ;-)

Yeah, stuff falls out at Maple once in awhile. Stuff falls off of Yosemite. So what? It was all cemented in very nicely at Maple when I met Erika and Jim there last year. At the lower grades? It's tough deciding what to grab next, lol! At the other end? Draws hanging vertically in space from overhead, upside down stuff!

TLDR, have fun while you still can! Best, Helen

dragons wroteRichard, if you're available when we're at the Gunks in April, we'd love to climb a route or two with you again!

You know where to find me!

Russ Walling wrote:

Probably area dependent as much as anything.  Don’t try it at Josh... mabye it will work on smooth granite slabs.  What is tough about that grade and then potential falls, is the climbs will probably be cruiser low angle and steepen up at the crux.  That is the bad combo because now you airball it off the crux and crater your ankles on the slab below.  

Get beastly strong and make a quick jump past the dangerous grades?  Maybe that is the solution.

I’m really curious to get some experienced perspective from you and others.  I have been sorta shocked by the comments of a few climbing friends who have said “I won’t  climb in Joshua Tree. Too hard.”   Is this true?  I have so little to compare with.  Outside of outings up in Donner/Truckee Josh is all I know—and it’s always been “hard”, I assumed that’s because I’m new and really inexperienced.  So do various areas have reputations for easier and harder routes?  Is there something that makes Josh a difficult destination? 

Maybe I should have begun my journey at other crags. 

Lori Milas wrote:

I’m really curious to get some experienced perspective from you and others.  I have been sorta shocked by the comments of a few climbing friends who have said “I won’t  climb in Joshua Tree. Too hard.”   Is this true?  I have so little to compare with.  Outside of outings up in Donner/Truckee Josh is all I know—and it’s always been “hard”, I assumed that’s because I’m new and really inexperienced.  So do various areas have reputations for easier and harder routes?  Is there something that makes Josh a difficult destination? 

Maybe I should have begun my journey at other crags. 

It's a bit old school.  But mostly it's wankers with poor footwork who don't know how to climb slab saying it is "hard."   

Lori Milas wrote:

I’m really curious to get some experienced perspective from you and others.  I have been sorta shocked by the comments of a few climbing friends who have said “I won’t  climb in Joshua Tree. Too hard.”   Is this true?  I have so little to compare with.  Outside of outings up in Donner/Truckee Josh is all I know—and it’s always been “hard”, I assumed that’s because I’m new and really inexperienced.  So do various areas have reputations for easier and harder routes?  Is there something that makes Josh a difficult destination? 

Maybe I should have begun my journey at other crags. 

Lori... you need to travel a bit to see the difference. Josh gives you rough ass stone, loose sandy stuff,  heck even the cracks are sharp. Climbing at JT means that you give blood. Other spots- like Shuteye- are smooth with knobs and water formed grooves some of it is steep. Go to TM and your begging for something to hold on to. One thing I like about visiting different places is the variety of stone and figuring out how to climb it. Good idea about finding the community in Josh, many good people and activities. And after you settle in - we can go to where the Josh Locals go to sport climb- New Jack City! A total choss pile. 

dragons.... don’t eschew a type of rock known as “”choss” .... it’s normally steep with things to grab, and the conglomerates might be the best! It screams at you- “Look at all the big holds- everywhere- climb me!” Then it breaks your heart cause the big holds are only illusions and one needs to memorize the sequences to have a hope. 

Guy Keesee wrote:

Lori... you need to travel a bit to see the difference. Josh gives you rough ass stone, loose sandy stuff,  heck even the cracks are sharp. Climbing at JT means that you give blood. Other spots- like Shuteye- are smooth with knobs and water formed grooves some of it is steep. Go to TM and your begging for something to hold on to. One thing I like about visiting different places is the variety of stone and figuring out how to climb it. Good idea about finding the community in Josh, many good people and activities. And after you settle in - we can go to where the Josh Locals go to sport climb- New Jack City! A total choss pile. 

Guy... thank you so much.  It's taken me this long just not to feel like deer-in-the-headlights about climbing.  I now have a vague idea what I'm doing in Josh... and I have given blood--banged up plenty of body parts and ripped skin off my hands and fingertips.  I thought that was what you call 'climbing'.  But I've been thinking of late that if I were to show up at Smith, or New Jack City... my concept of climbing might change a lot!  I've declined much leading in Josh because most routes consume me just climbing them!  However... a sports crag I might sing a different tune.  SO much ahead... really looking forward to this.    

Lori Milas wrote:

Guy... thank you so much.  It's taken me this long just not to feel like deer-in-the-headlights about climbing.  I now have a vague idea what I'm doing in Josh... and I have given blood--banged up plenty of body parts and ripped skin off my hands and fingertips.  I thought that was what you call 'climbing'.  But I've been thinking of late that if I were to show up at Smith, or New Jack City... my concept of climbing might change a lot!  I've declined much leading in Josh because most routes consume me just climbing them!  However... a sports crag I might sing a different tune.  SO much ahead... really looking forward to this.    

Yup! Go to some other places, actual "destinations". Literally all of them I've been to are easier, less scary than my local stuff. Not to mention the existence of sub 5.7 routes! Smith, City, Maple, wherever the heck Erika took me near Boulder...

You are a very capable and strong climber, bottom line. In terms of hands and feet going up rock, I'd say you are creeping into "intermediate". Own it, kid! You earned it! YOU climb at JT!

The other big plus we have in common? When you do get out elsewhere, you will have an understanding of, and healthy respect for, "old school". That alone, puts you ahead of many others, and safer, too. It's appropriate to be wary of new to you areas, rock, even partners...but use your judgement, and manage risks as you see fit. Even climbing with the level of expertise you have had access to? It's still your call.

EDIT to add: that JT experience? Will also help when you get out to much less known stuff! Super fun to go with a solid leader...where there isn't even much of a guide, lol! Obviously, only very trusted partners, if you are going to just eyeball stuff and climb. Or, try something way out of your experience, like ice climbing. 

Best, Helen

Old lady H wrote:

Yup! Go to some other places, actual "destinations". Literally all of them I've been to are easier, less scary than my local stuff. Not to mention the existence of sub 5.7 routes! Smith, City, Maple, wherever the heck Erika took me near Boulder...

You are a very capable and strong climber, bottom line. In terms of hands and feet going up rock, I'd say you are creeping into "intermediate". Own it, kid! You earned it! YOU climb at JT!

The other big plus we have in common? When you do get out elsewhere, you will have an understanding of, and healthy respect for, "old school". That alone, puts you ahead of many others, and safer, too. It's appropriate to be wary of new to you areas, rock, even partners...but use your judgement, and manage risks as you see fit. Even climbing with the level of expertise you have had access to? It's still your call.

EDIT to add: that JT experience? Will also help when you get out to much less known stuff! Super fun to go with a solid leader...where there isn't even much of a guide, lol! Obviously, only very trusted partners, if you are going to just eyeball stuff and climb. Or, try something way out of your experience, like ice climbing.

Best, Helen

Hey Helen!  

Something I've noticed also... as I'm learning how we each tick... lots of folks on this thread love to travel around, try out all kinds of new places, different rock.   I can see the beauty of that. 

But I have the fever to hunker down in this one spot, settle in HERE (Josh), and learn it intimately.  Learn the rock, the granite, the feel, the angles of the sun as they shift by the hour and by the day (a real science), the flora and the fauna... the 'vibe'... the mindset of the route-setters (I am getting to where I can spot a Gaines route, or one Todd set, or 'the Houser Crew") understand navigating around ever-changing rocks where I always get lost because they never look the same walking back to the car as they did walking to.  I want to be as comfortable in this desert place as the native coyotes and crows.  

I didn't realize how I felt until I talked to Ryan this week and talked to him about visiting the desert.  He said he's game to come climb there... but not now.  He has his own special places, projects he has in mind, things he's itching to work on.  And with his limited time, he wants to focus in one spot.  

Going to one place once or for a day or two, and then leaving, I'd feel like I barely said hello.  So, different strokes...  I have noticed a lot of Josh climbers do likewise.  They stay there most of the year, and then foray out during the summer to someplace new and different.  :-)

dragons wrote:
Re the fatal flaw: so, what's the solution? How does one get better at steeper, "safer" climbs without transitioning through the dangerous 5.7s?

I know you asked Russ, but here's my answer, too.

The key to going from ledgy climbs where it's not safe to fall (ie, 5.6-5.7 trad) to vertical to overhanging sport climbs where you can whip at will is just to ignore the numbers. For example, if you can lead 5.4 Gunks I promise you that you could lead this overhanging 5.10a at Malibu Creek without incident. You just need to forget about there being any kind of linear transition between your trad grades and style and your sport grades and style. Get yourself a stick clip and start WHIPPING! That's the whole point of sport climbing. Safe falls.

Lori Milas wrote:

I’m really curious to get some experienced perspective from you and others.  I have been sorta shocked by the comments of a few climbing friends who have said “I won’t  climb in Joshua Tree. Too hard.”   Is this true? 

Two observations about this: One is that J-tree climbs differently than a lot of places. First of all, there's lots of slab. Slab scares people. Slab requires excellent footwork and trust in your feet. Run out slab scares me. So many people don't like that. Also, as you know, J-tree rock is often rather weathered and course. So that makes it feel different. Personally, I love it there.

The last thing is that places that were explored early tend to have been rated on the 5.0 to 5.9 scale. So a lot of J-tree 5.6 would be rated entirely differently if the FA were happening today. Same goes up at Tahquitz and in Yosemite. I'm sure the E. Coast places like the Gunks are the same. I was recently scared shitless on a 5.7 at J-tree. You wouldn't see that at a modern sport area.

But the operative point is that the rock doesn't care about the numbers. A climb isn't "easy" or "hard" because someone put numbers on it. It's easy or hard because that's the subjective experience of someone who climbs it. My hard is Alex Honnold's easy. 

rgold wrote:

You know where to find me!

You got it, man!

Senor Arroz wrote:

I know you asked Russ, but here's my answer, too.

The key to going from ledgy climbs where it's not safe to fall (ie, 5.6-5.7 trad) to vertical to overhanging sport climbs where you can whip at will is just to ignore the numbers. For example, if you can lead 5.4 Gunks I promise you that you could lead this overhanging 5.10a at Malibu Creek without incident. You just need to forget about there being any kind of linear transition between your trad grades and style and your sport grades and style. Get yourself a stick clip and start WHIPPING! That's the whole point of sport climbing. Safe falls.

I can indeed lead 5.4 Gunks. But, 5.4 Gunks routes are not usually overhung. I can't think of a one that's overhung. Anyone? In my experience, Gunks routes don't start to overhang until 5.6 (sometimes, just a bit), and those I can't lead (yet).

We do have a stick clip, and have used it liberally at Rumney :) But usually you don't want to fall before you've clipped the 2nd bolt, at least.

Anyway, you've got a good point. I'm making it my goal to find a really safely-bolted, easy overhung sport route at Rumney this year, and I will lead that sucker, one way or another.

dragons wrote:

I can indeed lead 5.4 Gunks. But, 5.4 Gunks routes are not usually overhung. I can't think of a one that's overhung...

Right. That's my point. The change is moving from less than vertical or vertical to overhanging. But overhanging isn't actually "harder." It's just different. Different skill sets. The gym is a great place to learn to do it at first. Try something different. Maple Canyon is not the Gunks. Owens River Gorge is not J-tree. They're just different things with different requirements. 

I agree with the poster above who said that 5.7 polished slab is the "hardest" thing ever. 

dragons wrote:

I can indeed lead 5.4 Gunks. But, 5.4 Gunks routes are not usually overhung. I can't think of a one that's overhung. Anyone? In my experience, Gunks routes don't start to overhang until 5.6 (sometimes, just a bit), and those I can't lead (yet).

We do have a stick clip, and have used it liberally at Rumney :) But usually you don't want to fall before you've clipped the 2nd bolt, at least.

Anyway, you've got a good point. I'm making it my goal to find a really safely-bolted, easy overhung sport route at Rumney this year, and I will lead that sucker, one way or another.

1) Gelsa. I think the top pitch is >90.  Not a lot, but...and I would not want to fall on it, so your point is still valid.  Some of the upper parts of Betty ? (been a long time for me on the upper pitches). 

2) I've been known to stick clip bolt 2 (sheepish grin)

Something really simple you aren't considering: people actually expecting a route.​ Indoors, yeah, follow that pink thing. Or be labeled a noob who has to "rainbow". Or....be someone who looks at a wall, and selects how to climb it. I do that often, in the gym, likely because I started outside. On top rope, it's entirely my call where that route is. Gear, then alpine and mountaineering, of course, the whole works can be your call. It's an entirely different game than doing what some setter, or bolter, decides is the ​line. Just my two cents, or more accurately, that old crusty trad guy with bad karma reincarnated into the old lady body, lol!

Lori, I travel, but that's largely about the people. It t was an added bonus to discover rock that was easy and fun! Idaho is my home, in the way Jtree is becoming yours. A place where even your bones know the weather. Where others cancel because "rain" is in the forecast, but you go anyway, knowing it's likely a total non issue. Or....you don't care it's August and will be hot. You'd still rather be there, chasing the shade, or a swimming hole, than, ummmm, mowing the lawn, eh? I'm truly happy you have found that place.

One tiny quibble, though? Routesetters work in gyms. Outside, you are a developer, put up the FA, or both.

Although Comp wall at City of Rocks had gym holds on it, once upon a time, lol!

Best, Helen